Have you left the flag in?

[JESII]

How many of your putts per year would/will be helped by the pin staying in?

[JESII]

AG - the chart that surprised me was on page 115. Just counted and would place 18 of the top 40 storages gained guys from 2004 - 2012 in the control/Wedge and Putter category versus the ball striker category.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

How many of your putts per year would/will be helped by the pin staying in?

Asked and answered (by saying you can't answer a question that broad/vague).

Goodness, some players play 20 rounds a year and others play 200. All else equal you're looking at an order of magnitude difference in the answer to your question there.

[Kalen Braley]

Erik,


I'm interested in the same thing Jim is.  Whats the strokes per round net savings? I'm guessing its gotta be far far less than 1 for most players....

[JESII]

Erik, I was asking YOU how often this happens to YOU.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'm interested in the same thing Jim is.  Whats the strokes per round net savings? I'm guessing its gotta be far far less than 1 for most players....

And again, way too vague/broad. I don't know how many times you want me to say it.

For virtually everyone, yes, <1. But would you willingly give up an advantage per round when it's basically "free"? (i.e. it requires no practice time, no money, etc.). Would you stop playing the dice game if you didn't hit on the first few rolls?

Maybe if you're shooting 85 you don't really care about a fraction of a shot per round. But when you're shooting 70, or 72, or 68.3, you care.

Erik, I was asking YOU how often this happens to YOU.

I'll keep track this year and will let you know. Better yet, I'll try to keep track of my daughter's rounds (she's a 5.0) as she invariably ends up playing significantly more than I do.

[Pat Burke]

The flagsticks at my club are thick and a bit bouncy, but ive been informally testing them with some of my juniors, and one of the better players at the club.


In no way am I commenting scientifically, but on putts inside 10 feet, my students are markedly more aggressive with the flagstick left in.
Short putts (inside 4 feet) especially are more aggressive and in informal playing, seems like there are better results


Yes, sometimes a simple putt gets blown by, but seems the comfortable range on short ones grew too.


And IMO our flagsticks are not great for it, very bouncy.

[Kalen Braley]

Erik,


That's all fine and good, and for someone as myself who regularly shoots north of 90 per round, saving .1 shots per round (1 in 10) is really just much ado about nothing. I think thats what Jim and I are trying to show, that for the vast majority of golfers, its basically a negligible savings.

I'd be much more concerned with fixing things like avoiding bunkers, not 3 jacking, staying clear of OB, not laying sod over the ball, etc....those are often 5-10 strokes per round for the average hack.

[A.G._Crockett]

AG - the chart that surprised me was on page 115. Just counted and would place 18 of the top 40 storages gained guys from 2004 - 2012 in the control/Wedge and Putter category versus the ball striker category.

Jim,

This is getting silly.  "Control/wedge/putter" category?  What is that? 


But as to the chart that you reference, which is the top 40 in Strokes Gained for 2004 to 2012: There are TWO players who rank outside the top 100 in SG rankings for driving, and THREE than rank outside the top 100 in SG on approaches.  Meanwhile, there are THIRTEEN that rank outside the top 100 for short game, and FIFTEEN that rank outside the top 100 for putting.


Likewise, the average SG ranks for those 40 players in those four categories (drive, approach, short game, putting) are 32, 44, 71, and 87, respectively.   You can draw your own conclusions about what that means about the relative significance of each category in the overall picture.


You're making this awfully easy.

[Pete Lavallee]

I have started keeping track of putts either helped or hurt by leaving the flag in; kind of like card counting in blackjack. So far we are +3 helping and 0 hurting on putts that actually hit the stick.


It certainly helpful to leave the flag in until we get to the 10 foot range when a “traditionalist” will ask for removal. Everyone seems fine with the fag left out from there on.


Sadly it hasn’t seemed help our overall pace of play as we invariably have to wait on the group in front who obviously don’t care about the statistics provided by Pelz or LSW!

[A.G._Crockett]

The flagsticks at my club are thick and a bit bouncy, but ive been informally testing them with some of my juniors, and one of the better players at the club.


In no way am I commenting scientifically, but on putts inside 10 feet, my students are markedly more aggressive with the flagstick left in.
Short putts (inside 4 feet) especially are more aggressive and in informal playing, seems like there are better results


Yes, sometimes a simple putt gets blown by, but seems the comfortable range on short ones grew too.


And IMO our flagsticks are not great for it, very bouncy.

 

Pat,

This is, I think, the real impact of being able to putt with the stick in.  It isn't about how many putts go in that wouldn't have, which can never be proven anyway.


It's about having a better, smaller target, and smaller targets typically make for smaller misses, not just in terms of line, but in terms of speed.  And anything that helps with depth perception is a big deal, too.  Would free throw shooting be easier or harder if the basket was simply suspended in midair instead of having a backboard with a rectangle painted on it? 


I think what you are seeing at your club is exactly in line with Pelz and others have found, and exactly in line with what the data will show as we go forward.

[Kalen Braley]

Still seems its difficult to know if the stick is "helping" without being in a very controlled and easily repeatable environment.

But on some random green on the course, If I have a putt that hits the stick, how do I know it wouldn't have hit the back of the cup and gone in otherwise?  Or visa versa if I hit the back of the hole with the stick out and it doesn't go in, how do I know it would have gone in if it hit the stick?

[JESII]

AG - I read the same numbers you just cited...my interest is in figuring out how guys that are clearly not “ball strikers” would perform so much better than my expectations.


Again, I know you’ll simply reference back to the stats and the method to justify the stats and the method...and I’ll very likely get on board but want to get my hands around it a little more.

[A.G._Crockett]

Still seems its difficult to know if the stick is "helping" without being in a very controlled and easily repeatable environment.

But on some random green on the course, If I have a putt that hits the stick, how do I know it wouldn't have hit the back of the cup and gone in otherwise?  Or visa versa if I hit the back of the hole with the stick out and it doesn't go in, how do I know it would have gone in if it hit the stick?

Kalen,

Without access to a parallel universe, you won't know.  You'll just have to rely on the laws of physics and the accumulated data by those that have studied such things and go with the probabilities that suit you.


And if you DO find access to that parallel universe, let me know; I'm not that happy with this one anymore anyway.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

That's all fine and good, and for someone as myself who regularly shoots north of 90 per round, saving .1 shots per round (1 in 10) is really just much ado about nothing. I think thats what Jim and I are trying to show, that for the vast majority of golfers, its basically a negligible savings.

You might save more because your distance control is likely poorer.

And, like I said, it's basically "free" so it doesn't make too much sense to me not to take advantage of it. Other things can affect the savings upward or downward too.

It certainly helpful to leave the flag in until we get to the 10 foot range when a “traditionalist” will ask for removal.

If you're a pretty good putter, you can extend that out to even 20, 25 feet pretty reasonably.

But on some random green on the course, If I have a putt that hits the stick, how do I know it wouldn't have hit the back of the cup and gone in otherwise?  Or visa versa if I hit the back of the hole with the stick out and it doesn't go in, how do I know it would have gone in if it hit the stick?

You don't, and that's part of why so many people take the flagstick out even when chipping. When a ball is rolling away from you (as most every shot is), it's very difficult to actually determine what speed it's going. Anything above 3.1 MPH and anything outside of the middle of the hole is almost never going in, and yet a ball rolling 5 MPH will have people swearing that it would have gone in when it ricochets off to a foot… even though in reality it probably would have barely clipped the back lip and rolled eight or nine feet by the cup.

People are bad at judging this and almost always think a shot would have gone in even if it stays out with the flagstick, when testing reveals these happen pretty infrequently (an in converted to an out because of the flagstick).

Without access to a parallel universe, you won't know.  You'll just have to rely on the laws of physics and the accumulated data by those that have studied such things and go with the probabilities that suit you.

This.

[Bill Brightly]

As someone who is stuck in the Northeast US and has not played a round of golf in two months, I say screw you all who have tried leaving the pin in. But please carry on with the discussion...

[Steve Lang]

   Bill B,


It'll be a little over 70 degF today here, so I'll be checking the pin COR, angular aiming parallax with pin in and out, and the dormant bermuda elastic vs non-elastic effects per moisture content, and of course hole mounding and angles from how they cut the holes today versus the other day when it was mid 60's..   Naw... its a game, not trying to make a career out of it!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/

Yet another test with the conclusion: leave the flagstick in.

[JESII]

Erik,


That study is saying that of putts going 3 feet by, only 40% would go in without the pin...


These are not lip outs because they would have also hit the pin, just off-center. These same putts would go in 85% of the time with the pin in.


I wouldn't hang my hat on that study if I were you.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

That study is saying that of putts going 3 feet by, only 40% would go in without the pin...

These are not lip outs because they would have also hit the pin, just off-center. These same putts would go in 85% of the time with the pin in.

I wouldn't hang my hat on that study if I were you.

I'm not. I conducted my own study. This study, however, aligns pretty well.

Are you suggesting that putts that go 3' by the hole should almost always go in?



A putt going 3' by needs to hit within +/- 0.7" of the center of the hole to go in. So their testing may have been pretty close to that limit.

[JESII]

Were the greens about 5 feet on the stimp for that test?

[John Kavanaugh]

I've been a registered professional engineer for over 30 years performing and supervising tests on both sides of the equation. Kinda like young Doak gives a course an 8 and then figures out why, you can get any results you want depending on your agenda for any test. That is why in any serious endeavor there are standardized tests. I don't think we are quite there with pingate.


I would like to add Physics to Religion and Politics as topics not to be discussed in mixed company. The pin, the ball and the hole have about as much to do with physics as the apple and the tree.

[JESII]

I would like to add Physics to Religion and Politics as topics not to be discussed in mixed company. The pin, the ball and the hole have about as much to do with physics as the apple and the tree.

This...

[A.G._Crockett]

I would like to add Physics to Religion and Politics as topics not to be discussed in mixed company. The pin, the ball and the hole have about as much to do with physics as the apple and the tree.

This...

Yeah, the laws of physics are EXACTLY like politics and religion.

Please.

[JESII]

Just a little fun AG...