Have you left the flag in?

[Dan Boerger]

I have and I like it. I saw BDC keep the flag in for some short putts this weekend. I think it will speed up play a bit with my regular group.

[Steve Lang]

   a fav Ken Venturi perspective quote kinda says it all...  something like " take the pin out, unless you're afraid of par"


wish he would have won the Masters as an amm...

[Daryl David]

So far most of the discussion about this centers on the physics of the putt. Have not seen much talk about the mental side. A guy I play with has vastly improved his short putting since the rule change. He has stopped thinking about holing putts and concentrates on hitting the stick. His normal miss from 3 to 5 feet was the weak roller that goes up to the cup and falls to the side. Now he focuses on hitting that stick and always gets it there. Have not seen one where the pin rejects the putt. Short putts just aren’t hit that hard. Have seen several I thought would be lip outs stay in. Another guy in the group wonders when the equipment manufacturers are going to paint a ring around the pin at cup level for aiming. A new version on the cheater line! 

[MCirba]

Yes, sadly, mea culpa.   Forgive me father, for I have sinned.

It looks so freaking stupid on television, as well.

It's clear the whole purpose of the flagstick is to be able to locate the hole from a distance, not to be a putting aid.

Ugh.

[Tim Martin]

Not needing someone to tend the pin alleviates the unintended consequences of stepping on your line as well as casting a shadow across the hole. Not all “tenders” are created equal.

[Pete_Pittock]

Played  scramble yesterday for the first time this year, it was very windy and we choose to keep the flag in for putts other than the short ones.  We had a 30 footer downhill and into the wind, thus the flagstick was leaning towards us.  One of my partners hit a putt that was going to go dead center and hit the flagstick and ricocheted to about 2 inches in front of the hole.  We were all like, WTF? ?  I don't have much experience with keeping the flag in, but recall someone telling me that leave the flag in when blowing away and take out when blowing in your face.

Jeff,
If the flagstick is leaning towards the player, the size of the effective cup becomes smaller. Pertaining to leaning flagsticks, the old rules had something which said you could reposition the flagstick, but not towards aby advantage.

[A.G._Crockett]

So far most of the discussion about this centers on the physics of the putt. Have not seen much talk about the mental side. A guy I play with has vastly improved his short putting since the rule change. He has stopped thinking about holing putts and concentrates on hitting the stick. His normal miss from 3 to 5 feet was the weak roller that goes up to the cup and falls to the side. Now he focuses on hitting that stick and always gets it there. Have not seen one where the pin rejects the putt. Short putts just aren’t hit that hard. Have seen several I thought would be lip outs stay in. Another guy in the group wonders when the equipment manufacturers are going to paint a ring around the pin at cup level for aiming. A new version on the cheater line! 

Daryl,
You're right, and I've thought about this aspect.  The general idea is that a smaller target means smaller misses; same thing applies with a free throw shooter in basketball.  I think there is value in that, especially on shorter putts.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If the flagstick is leaning towards the player, the size of the effective cup becomes smaller.

It also deflects the ball downward, which aids a player.

My general problem with this is that a good putter is more likely to have decent speed, and at a decent speed, there's no real advantage to having the flag in or out. A poor putter benefits moreso, if their speed is off.

[Mark Pearce]

I have now.  It makes sense and, used sensibly, will speed things up a bit.  Dropping from knee height, however, is just stupid.  Unless you have abnormally long arms, it's awkward and ungainly.

[Kalen Braley]

All of this discussion points to one thing...rules bifurcation.

Of course pro tourneys don't need this because they have non-playing caddies to take care of the pin without undue delay.  But in the case of a group or especially a two-some in normal non-competitive play there is no doubt it will speed things up.

P.S.  AG is right on the money as usual with his analysis....

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Dropping from knee height, however, is just stupid.  Unless you have abnormally long arms, it's awkward and ungainly.

It is the way they've been doing it, but it doesn't have to be. Bend forward or bend a little to your right or left and drop. Simple. I could argue it's less "awkward" than holding your hand straight out to your side at shoulder height. Just looks odd until you get used to it.

[Rick Emerson]

I was already leaving the flag in whenever I played by myself. I know it was cheating but, it is just faster and easier. As far as whether it helps, Dave Pelz has proven that it absolutely does help. His research showed it was better to leave it in when playing from off the green in the Short Game Bible years ago. If it is rolling slow enough to go in the hole with the flag out it will still drop with the flag in and the flag helps more balls find the hole that were hit to hard to drop with no flag.


Short answer: I'll always leave the flag in unless a playing partner has already removed it. I'm all about saving time and I'm not going to waste time to tell a playing partner to put the flag back in if it is already out.

[Jeff Schley]

Played  scramble yesterday for the first time this year, it was very windy and we choose to keep the flag in for putts other than the short ones.  We had a 30 footer downhill and into the wind, thus the flagstick was leaning towards us.  One of my partners hit a putt that was going to go dead center and hit the flagstick and ricocheted to about 2 inches in front of the hole.  We were all like, WTF? ?  I don't have much experience with keeping the flag in, but recall someone telling me that leave the flag in when blowing away and take out when blowing in your face.

Jeff,
If the flagstick is leaning towards the player, the size of the effective cup becomes smaller. Pertaining to leaning flagsticks, the old rules had something which said you could reposition the flagstick, but not towards aby advantage.

Thanks Pete... so is that a good rule of thumb leaning to you pull, leaning away keep in?

Erik what is your take?

[Steve Lang]

Dropping from knee height, however, is just stupid.  Unless you have abnormally long arms, it's awkward and ungainly.

It is the way they've been doing it, but it doesn't have to be. Bend forward or bend a little to your right or left and drop. Simple. I could argue it's less "awkward" than holding your hand straight out to your side at shoulder height. Just looks odd until you get used to it.

That's funny, dropping  a ball is now like doing the hokey pokey... 


its an awkward drop point, admit it... unless you're a monkey

[B.Ross]

played 2 round this year and kept it in nearly all the time. not only the physics, but for me the mental. i'm less likely to look up & move my head with the pin in.

[jeffwarne]

Dropping from knee height, however, is just stupid.  Unless you have abnormally long arms, it's awkward and ungainly.

It is the way they've been doing it, but it doesn't have to be. Bend forward or bend a little to your right or left and drop. Simple. I could argue it's less "awkward" than holding your hand straight out to your side at shoulder height. Just looks odd until you get used to it.

That's funny, dropping  a ball is now like doing the hokey pokey... 


its an awkward drop point, admit it... unless you're a monkey

This(monkey drops) and putting 2 footers with the pin in.....
...from an "organization" that thought anchoring had to be banned because
......"it looked bad"


Dear USGA,




Please stop helping.

[Tim Martin]

Dropping from knee height, however, is just stupid.  Unless you have abnormally long arms, it's awkward and ungainly.

It is the way they've been doing it, but it doesn't have to be. Bend forward or bend a little to your right or left and drop. Simple. I could argue it's less "awkward" than holding your hand straight out to your side at shoulder height. Just looks odd until you get used to it.

That's funny, dropping  a ball is now like doing the hokey pokey... 


its an awkward drop point, admit it... unless you're a monkey

This(monkey drops) and putting 2 footers with the pin in.....
...from an "organization" that thought anchoring had to be banned because
......"it looked bad"


Dear USGA,




Please stop helping.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

Couldn't agree more on the "looking bad" thing.

For the life of me I can't figure why shorts are banned on Tour, but Beef Johnston is allowed to sport the Captain Caveman look....

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Thanks Pete... so is that a good rule of thumb leaning to you pull, leaning away keep in?


Erik what is your take?

A flagstick that's leaning slightly toward you will deflect a ball downward and into the hole. It helps more than a vertical flagstick, actually.

This is the original (from the 90s) Pelz article, basically: https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out. It says:

• Perhaps most surprising, when the flagstick leans either slightly toward the golfer or away, the odds of it helping to keep the ball in the hole increase: With the flagstick leaning away from the golfer, the hole becomes effectively larger; when the flagstick leans toward the golfer, the ball rebounds downward, again helping shots find the hole.

• Only in the most obvious case, when the flagstick is leaning so far toward the golfer that there isn’t enough room for the ball, is leaving the flagstick in a bad idea. Check the flagstick before you chip to be sure it is sitting properly in the cup. (The Rules of Golf prohibit you from positioning a flagstick to your advantage. But you may leave a tilting flagstick as is or else center it in the hole.)

[JESII]

Erik,


If I play about 40 rounds a year...my estimate for the number of times I would hit the pin on a putt going more than 4 feet past the hole is 0.25.


Of those 1 putt every 4 years, you’re telling me the pin will help how much?

[Thomas Dai]

Anyone noticed since the “pin-in for putting if you wish” regulation came in any decline in the sharpness of hole edges after say a days play?
Atb

[Jeff Schley]

Erik,


If I play about 40 rounds a year...my estimate for the number of times I would hit the pin on a putt going more than 4 feet past the hole is 0.25.


Of those 1 putt every 4 years, you’re telling me the pin will help how much?

So basically the odds of a hole in one?   

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If I play about 40 rounds a year...my estimate for the number of times I would hit the pin on a putt going more than 4 feet past the hole is 0.25.

It's going to affect different people at different rates. I've watched my college players hit the hole from off the green at rates that would surprise many players. Better players tend to hit the hole from farther distances… but also have slightly better distance control, too.

If you're willing to give up an advantage because you think it's negligible, by all means, go for it. Doesn't change my life, man!    I can only recommend to golfers what I've recommended. Because, hey, just like those times when you can flip a coin and get heads five times in a row, there may come a time when you might even benefit and save a shot or more twice in one round, and your 78 could have been a 76 or lower.

[Daryl David]

Anyone noticed since the “pin-in for putting if you wish” regulation came in any decline in the sharpness of hole edges after say a days play?
Atb

Nope

[JESII]

No no, seriously...how much help am I getting?


If my 40 footer is going 10 feet by, how often does it go in if it hits dead center? How about if it hits on an angle? On that angle, how for away does it go?