Have you left the flag in?

[Lou_Duran]

Except on this site, I've yet to hear a single person have anything bad to say about this rule change.  The guys I play just remove the flagstick out of habit.  I am a bad iron player so I am often out, and with bad eyesight, flagstick in is my preference.  We play out of turn a lot, so I think that as the year progresses, we will leave it in more and more.


The one rule change I wish they had made more flexible is dropping the ball.  I think it would be better to allow the drop from any distance between the knee and the shoulder.



 

[Mark Pearce]

How will it change course design?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

But it can hurt...see Matt Cohn from early in this thread.

I don't necessarily take his word for it that it would have gone in. 10 revolutions per second at dead center, only 3.1 MPH, requires a shot to hit the exact dead center to go in. That's not that fast. People often mis-judge the speed of a putt, particularly when it's rolling away from you (i.e. not tangential to you, perpendicular).

But maybe. Like I said, one in every few hundred that would have gone in will stay out, but one in every few hundred that would have missed will stay in at these lower speeds. So maybe. There's no net disadvantage, though.

You explain the lip out that gets help but I didn’t understand. Sounded like lip outs that are going way past the hole could be helped because they were in the air somehow?!?

You misunderstood. A ball that rides any of the lip won't hit the flagstick. The entire ball fits between the edge of the hole and the flagstick, so a ball riding on the lip isn't really even that close to touching the flagstick. Only the balls that roll over the "front edge", "fly through the air" for a short distance, and would hit the back lip and "lip out" could hit the flagstick mid-flight. In other words, putts hit outside the middle ~1/3rd of the cup aren't even going to hit the flagstick.

Did I make more sense that time?

I'm still having a hard time seeing how its an unfair advantage if everyone gets to leave it in?

It's an advantage over requiring that the flagstick be removed (via the two-stroke penalty).

One additional question on tending.  Can your caddie or playing companion hold the pin upright for you and not remove it if they are instructed to do so?  Say it is windy out.

No. If tended, it must be removed.

The one rule change I wish they had made more flexible is dropping the ball.  I think it would be better to allow the drop from any distance between the knee and the shoulder.

That wouldn't achieve what they wanted to achieve.

[Jim Sherma]

Leaving the pin in so far and likely to keep doing so. Probably take it out for short putts but not sure.


The concern of the cups being beaten up as people dig their balls out with the pin is should be getting more play when people talk of this.


I believe in the research that most normal pins can’t really hurt and should help on average over many rounds. There is the confirmation bias of players seeing the putts/shots that hit the flag and stay out. We don’t really see, or at least can’t be sure of, the putts that stay in with the flag that would have missed without it. This will make it tough for some to commit to leaving the pins in.

[James Brown]

The major playing issue I have already seen is for mixed groups where some want it out and others want it in, even close to the hole and you end up have to move the flag in or out after each putt.  Super tedious and doesn’t speed up play at all in that case.

[John Kavanaugh]

Once the cups are torn to hell we will have no choice but to leave the pin in on every putt.

[Steve Lang]

Except on this site, I've yet to hear a single person have anything bad to say about this rule change.  The guys I play just remove the flagstick out of habit.  I am a bad iron player so I am often out, and with bad eyesight, flagstick in is my preference.  We play out of turn a lot, so I think that as the year progresses, we will leave it in more and more.


The one rule change I wish they had made more flexible is dropping the ball.  I think it would be better to allow the drop from any distance between the knee and the shoulder.


YEH... does anyone have statistics on tibia lengths???  Is it top, middle or bottom of knee for drop?  Aren't the short guys getting an advantage?? and old guys with bad hips are going to have pain bending over!


 

[Steve Lang]

Once the cups are torn to hell we will have no choice but to leave the pin in on every putt.

Well yeh if you keep using your putter to get it out!

[John Kavanaugh]

The ole pull the ball out with the pin does the cup no favors either.

[Steve Lang]

The ole pull the ball out with the pin does the cup no favors either.

Agreed...




Will this all lead to more local rules or guidance on entitlement or etiquette?  more silliness for newbies instruction?

[Duncan Cheslett]

The ole pull the ball out with the pin does the cup no favors either.

On practice greens the pins have a plate at the bottom to facilitate lifting out two or three balls at a time. Could this design not be incorporated into all flagsticks?

[Thomas Dai]

Be interesting to see someone try to remove the ball from the hole with one of those new Ping Fetch putters when the flag’s in the hole!
Atb

[jeffwarne]

The ole pull the ball out with the pin does the cup no favors either.

On practice greens the pins have a plate at the bottom to facilitate lifting out two or three balls at a time. Could this design not be incorporated into all flagsticks?

+1

[Jim_Kennedy]

The ole pull the ball out with the pin does the cup no favors either.

On practice greens the pins have a plate at the bottom to facilitate lifting out two or three balls at a time. Could this design not be incorporated into all flagsticks?

I think the larger flange could cause some damage from careless handling as it's a much heavier flagstick than the ones used on practice greens. I cannot count the number of times I watch folks pull a flagstick out and just let it drop on the green.

[Peter Flory]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/edoardo-molinari-conducts-pretty-scientific-puttingflagstick-experiment-and-the-results-may-surprise-you

Based on the experiments by Molinari's team, it seems like a pro would be better to remove the pin because it makes no difference at the proper speed and helps slightly at medium speed.  This assumes that a pro can avoid the high speed scenario. 


On chipping, the high speed scenario is much more likely, so that would make leaving the pin in more important. 

One other thing that I'm realizing is that nobody seems to be factoring in that when a ball with pace hits the flagstick and goes in, it likely saves 2 shots.  When it hits the pin hard and doesn't go it, it likely still saves 1 shot.

[Kalen Braley]

Would need more details on the sample size of his test and more variety of putt speeds, angles, etc.

P.S.  I thought this video further down the page was more interesting... 

https://video.golfdigest.com/watch/long-drive-champion-hits-the-green-on-a-par-5

[Peter Flory]

Yeah, that Bay Hill thing is ridiculous. 

[Pete_Pittock]

My answer is no merely because I haven't been oout to play a round. But I will ask a question. When you are on the practice green do you take out the short flagsticks?

[Tim Martin]

The ole pull the ball out with the pin does the cup no favors either.

On practice greens the pins have a plate at the bottom to facilitate lifting out two or three balls at a time. Could this design not be incorporated into all flagsticks?

I think the larger flange could cause some damage from careless handling as it's a much heavier flagstick than the ones used on practice greens. I cannot count the number of times I watch folks pull a flagstick out and just let it drop on the green.

Jim-I was taught as a caddie to rest the flagstick on one of you shoes if you had to but never against the green itself. If you were leaving it on the green while waiting for players to finish the hole it should be placed and not dropped. It’s funny how these things stick with you.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/edoardo-molinari-conducts-pretty-scientific-puttingflagstick-experiment-and-the-results-may-surprise-you

I have a number of issues with that test. My own test involved about 3x as many balls rolled, and balls rolled much more precisely. They're rolling from like 6' away. That can change the entry point of the hole by quite a bit.

The tests I've seen by others involved many, many more putts.

[Jim_Kennedy]

"Jim-I was taught as a caddie to rest the flagstick on one of you shoes if you had to but never against the green itself. If you were leaving it on the green while waiting for players to finish the hole it should be placed and not dropped. It’s funny how these things stick with you."

You're  'Old school' Tim - that let out quite a long time ago.     

[Jeff Schley]

Played  scramble yesterday for the first time this year, it was very windy and we choose to keep the flag in for putts other than the short ones.  We had a 30 footer downhill and into the wind, thus the flagstick was leaning towards us.  One of my partners hit a putt that was going to go dead center and hit the flagstick and ricocheted to about 2 inches in front of the hole.  We were all like, WTF??  I don't have much experience with keeping the flag in, but recall someone telling me that leave the flag in when blowing away and take out when blowing in your face. 

[A.G._Crockett]

Imagine yourself in a science class of some sort, maybe Physics.  Answer the following questions.


Take a ball, any kind of ball.  Throw or roll that ball toward a fixed object, like a wall or a tree or a fence or your neighbor's car, so that the ball hits that object instead of continuing in the direction that you threw or rolled the ball.  Observe the effect of hitting the fixed object on the flight of the ball.


 Does the ball go farther than it would have if you had NOT hit the fixed object, or does the ball go LESS far than if you had not hit the fixed object?  Does the ball go faster, the same speed, or slower after striking the fixed object?  Why?


When a ball that was thrown or is rolling slows down due to striking a fixed object, such as a wall or a tree or a fence or your neighbor's car, what is the effect of gravity on that ball, should the ball find itself over a hole?

C'mon, guys; this is simple; don't make it more complicated.  Flagsticks slow the ball down, and balls that are moving slowly are more likely to drop in the hole.  They just are, because golf balls, like pretty much everything else, are governed by the laws of physics in the universe that we inhabit.  Duh...

[John Kavanaugh]

AG,


How do you explain the trampoline effect when a chipped ball hits the edge of the fringe? You know, a reasonably good looking chip gets fringefked and goes well past the hole.

[A.G._Crockett]

AG,


How do you explain the trampoline effect when a chipped ball hits the edge of the fringe? You know, a reasonably good looking chip gets fringefked and goes well past the hole.

John,
The great thing about a discussion board of grumpy old men is that I don't have to explain that.  And it doesn't have anything to do with hitting the flagstick anyway.

But I'll answer anyway.  What you are describing, "getting fringed" or "fringefked" happens when you hit a downslope where the Bermuda grass fringe is higher than the green surface and the ball doesn't check and slow down the way you thought it would.  Important note; the ball is NOT speeding up.  It just didn't slow down the way that you thought it would, just as it would if it hit a sprinkler head or a patch of hardpan.  Your brain processes it as the ball speeding up, but that can't be true IN THIS UNIVERSE.


It happens, but so does the chip that hits a little short and into the grain of the fringe and goes nowhere, right?  None of which has anything to do with what happens when a rolling ball hits a fixed flagstick while over a hole, except that the laws of physics apply to both situations.


Gravity.  Not just a good idea; it's the law!