Have you left the flag in?

[Matt Kardash]

I already played with the flag in most of the time. My dad and I would basically play speed golf together. People take the game too seriously and are way too slow.

[Dave McCollum]

I'm with you Matt.  I've been doing it for years, but more pointedly last year about six months out, casual remark about a new rule to get used to.  Really makes sense on a big green when a variety of chips and long putts.  Get the balls into a social grouping, let the needling begin.   

[Scott Sander]

Honest question:
In time, will cup liners and pins be manufactured as a single unit?

I'll probably always prefer the visual of putting to an empty cup, but that's only because of a lifetime spent doing it that way. The aesthetic is ingrained in me, but in light of the the new rule, it's rather arbitrary.

If I were new to the game, and someone could prove to me that leaving the flag in makes it more likely to sink putts, wouldn't it seem absurd to take it out?
 
I can already hear my (future) grandchildren laughing at me...

[Jay Mickle]

When playing alone I have always left the pin in and believe that I likely. hit fewer putts past the pin, as the pin not the hole seems to be the target. I will likely go with the current studies but sure like seeing the ball hit the back of the cup. I guess that I will have to develop the same Pavlovian response to the sound of a well struck pin.
Makes me wonder if pin manufacturers will be sound testing their product.

[JESII]

I would think the pace at which a pin in helps would be based on the balls actual speed as opposed to the distance past the hole it would go. Uphill putts are going much faster than downhill putts if they're both going 3 or 4 feet past the hole.


My experiences are like Matt Cohn and Sean Arble...haven't seen the pin help a good shot.


Erik, the study you posted references the pin helping a ball that might otherwise lip out. How did you determine this?

[Ira Fishman]

I could lay the pin directly behind and across the hole and it would not help my putting.  I have left the pin in for years when playing as a single or the early tee time two ball.  No question that it speeds up play.


Ira

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Honest question:
In time, will cup liners and pins be manufactured as a single unit?

Honestly I almost wish they'd mandated that if they were going to do this "flagstick in" rule.

My hope, sincerely, is that this is rolled back after a year. They lied to us; they said there was "no advantage" but they never actually tested it, because had they, they'd clearly see the advantage that every test the people are doing (myself, Lou Stagner, Dave Pelz, the guy from the video, etc.) is showing.

BTW, for those who are curious about this… look up the definitions and rules for the flagstick. They're very limited. A flagstick that's literally 4" in diameter is perfectly legal, as is one that's a tenth of an inch in diameter. The industry has mostly settled on about 0.5" diameter, but you could make a flagstick thicker or thinner. It just can't be tapered, it must be circular in cross-section, and it can't be made of "dampening" material, whatever that is, because there's no completely elastic material out there - all materials are going to dampen (absorb energy) somewhat.

I would think the pace at which a pin in helps would be based on the balls actual speed as opposed to the distance past the hole it would go. Uphill putts are going much faster than downhill putts if they're both going 3 or 4 feet past the hole.

We're using "distance past the pin" as a shorthand. Most people can't really conceive of what a ball rolling 3.1 MPH (about the maximum speed for capture at the center of the hole, ~10 revolutions per second) looks like. We can judge pretty well what a ball rolling 3' by the hole looks like.

Erik, the study you posted references the pin helping a ball that might otherwise lip out. How did you determine this?

To be clear for the pin to help a ball that would otherwise lip out it has to be the kind of lip-out where the ball is in the air for a bit, then hits the far side lip and bounces out. The kind of lip-outs where the ball never really leaves the grass would not be helped by the pin because they wouldn't contact the pin - there's 1.68" + some space between the edge of the hole and the cup, so a ball that is still slightly overlapping the outside of the cup won't contact the pin/stick.

How? In my tests, I set up a PerfectPutter (a set of metal rails with markings so you can release balls from the same location) with a laser at various points at the hole, and I rolled balls at various speeds with the flagstick in and out.

I agree with others that at "good speeds" the flagstick never helped. It never hurt, either, but of course it never hurt. A putt that would have gone in still went in. But in the cases where you don't hit a good or near-perfect putt, the less perfect it was, the more the flagstick helped you. In two ways: 1) balls that wouldn't go in went in more often. 2) balls that would have lipped hard or barely caught lip and rolled much further away stayed much, much closer to the hole (i.e. a ball that would have rolled out to 8' stayed at 2').

[John Kavanaugh]

I guess no one has said it yet. It's much harder to get the ball out of the hole when the pin is in.

[OChatriot]

I welcome it.
Net-net it does save time, and personally it helped. I focus better on the smaller flag target than the width of the hole. Think Bob Rotella's "pick the smallest target when you hit a drive". It works.
And if according to some of you, science shows the ball goes in more often too, then why should we complain!? We all need to score well to feel elated as if we'd played one of the 147 Custodians 

We will get used to it and in a few years we will not think about it anymore.

[JESII]

Erik - Ok, fair enough on the distance vs speed thing.


Your last paragraph kind of answers it for me. You've rolled thousands of balls that all hit the hole and see no difference if the putt is hit with pretty good speed. I'm very confident of my speed control inside of 30 or so feet so I might use the pin outside that. I think I lip out one or two 30+ footers per year so probably not something I need to sweat.

[Joe Leenheer]

Enjoy....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NcWCyXF30k

[Tim Martin]

Enjoy....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NcWCyXF30k

 

[jeffwarne]

 Keeping it in on the off chance that a poorly struck shot will end up better because it hit the stick doesn't work for me.


I am not convinced that leaving the flag in will always speed up play. Let's say Jason Day is away and takes the flag out. Dechambeau plays next and wants the flag in. I'm not convinced that leaving the stick in will always speed up play.

Some good thoughts there.


How long exactly does it take to take a pin out?
And unless it NEVER comes out i.e. everybody taps in with pin in (which I've yet to see) How exactly have you saved any time?


I take an opposite tack on the pin in or out thing (and always have)
If I'm hitting a putt or easy chip, I take the pin out when it's DOWNHILL because  my ball is moving quite slowly (hopefully) as it passes the hole, even if it's going 6 feet by, and if it catches the cup at that slow speed it's going in anyway.


On an uphiller, I'm hitting it with MORE speed, and may actually need the pin as it is going faster on an ideal shot(that worst case is only going 6 feet by)-and I may need the pin to make it.


But overall I think it is a STUPID, overthought rule change, like many of the others which simply confuse the few who actually bothered to learn the rules in the first place.
The USGA should do less, not more and Mike Davis' setup departure is a good first step.

[John Kavanaugh]

It takes a while to remove the pin because I always carry it to the fringe. I can't stand "pin slap" on the green even if you tell me it doesn't cause damage.

[jeffwarne]

It takes a while to remove the pin because I always carry it to the fringe. I can't stand "pin slap" on the green even if you tell me it doesn't cause damage.

and embarrassingly unbelievable to me how many good players do the pin slap on the green...

[Chad Anderson (Tennessee)]

I broke my hand playing basketball at the beginning of the year.  So no golf for me for awhile, which makes me mad since I'm headed to Florida for the PGA Show in a couple of weeks.


Leaving the flagstick in is still TBD for me.  My guess is yes because I tend to lag putts instead of ram them in.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Your last paragraph kind of answers it for me. You've rolled thousands of balls that all hit the hole and see no difference if the putt is hit with pretty good speed. I'm very confident of my speed control inside of 30 or so feet so I might use the pin outside that. I think I lip out one or two 30+ footers per year so probably not something I need to sweat.

Right. From https://lowestscorewins.com/tips/putting-with-the-flagstick-in I wrote:

* If you’re at least 95% certain that you can control the ball speed to within about 2-3′ past the hole, there’s almost no difference, so do whatever you like. One in every several hundred putts that would have gone in will be kept out, but one in every several hundred putts that would have lipped out will go in. There’s no net advantage or disadvantage.
* For every foot that your ball has the potential to roll further than 3′ past the hole, the advantage of leaving the flagstick in grows. Balls that would miss will go in or stay closer to the hole than they otherwise would have.

From 28-32' on the PGA Tour last year (not that they're the world's best putters, but they're pretty good), there were 10,692 putts attempted. 797 (7.5%) were made, 37.5% finished an average of 20.8" short, and 55.1% finished an average of 28.4" long.

So for good putters, sure, 30' is about the range where the ball will reach the hole with good speed, but can you be 95% confident? What if you goose one now and then? Since the flagstick can't HURT you, and since it can also help you a bit with depth perception, and it can help you on the occasional goosed putt… why take it out even from 30'?

I'm a very good putter, and I'm probably looking at 20' or even 15' as my range, give or take depending on the slope. Since it can't hurt you, and can only help you… why not?

[jeffwarne]

Your last paragraph kind of answers it for me. You've rolled thousands of balls that all hit the hole and see no difference if the putt is hit with pretty good speed. I'm very confident of my speed control inside of 30 or so feet so I might use the pin outside that. I think I lip out one or two 30+ footers per year so probably not something I need to sweat.

Right. From https://lowestscorewins.com/tips/putting-with-the-flagstick-in I wrote:

* If you’re at least 95% certain that you can control the ball speed to within about 2-3′ past the hole, there’s almost no difference, so do whatever you like. One in every several hundred putts that would have gone in will be kept out, but one in every several hundred putts that would have lipped out will go in. There’s no net advantage or disadvantage.
* For every foot that your ball has the potential to roll further than 3′ past the hole, the advantage of leaving the flagstick in grows. Balls that would miss will go in or stay closer to the hole than they otherwise would have.

From 28-32' on the PGA Tour last year (not that they're the world's best putters, but they're pretty good), there were 10,692 putts attempted. 797 (7.5%) were made, 37.5% finished an average of 20.8" short, and 55.1% finished an average of 28.4" long.

So for good putters, sure, 30' is about the range where the ball will reach the hole with good speed, but can you be 95% confident? What if you goose one now and then? Since the flagstick can't HURT you, and since it can also help you a bit with depth perception, and it can help you on the occasional goosed putt… why take it out even from 30'?

I'm a very good putter, and I'm probably looking at 20' or even 15' as my range, give or take depending on the slope. Since it can't hurt you, and can only help you… why not?

Agreed.


What do you think of the change?
I just don't understand the logic for the change.
It kills me with all the interesting things and issues in golf, that we are researching and spending time and thought on a topic such as gaining an advantage from an arbitrary rules change. No doubt it will benefit better players as they reach the hole more often and are are more likely to match their accidental  bad line with their bad speed and get help from the pin.


I would LOVE to see Augusta reintroduce the METAL pin as FU to the former ruling bodies of golf.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

What do you think of the change?

I am most disappointed that they said and continue to say "there is no advantage." Had they done even the littlest bit of research, they'd have noted that there was an advantage and may have at least been able to make an informed decision. They certainly got that feedback during the feedback phase, because I and a bunch of other people were able to reach a few people who I know heard what we had to say.

Honestly, I don't think the pace of play thing works either. Even keeping the old rule, how often did someone want to putt from 50' away while someone else was still raking the bunker or whatever? How often does that actually happen? Also consider that in casual play, people probably just putted anyway.

It kills me with all the interesting things and issues in golf, that we are researching and spending time and thought on a topic such as gaining an advantage from an arbitrary rules change. No doubt it will benefit better players as they reach the hole more often and are are more likely to match their accidental  bad line with their bad speed and get help from the pin.

It'll help better players because they're around the hole more, sure, but it'll also help worse putters because they lack the speed/distance control. So it really just helps all golfers.

Like I said, imagine you're 40' away putting for the club championship. You lag it up to a foot and tap in. Your opponent has a 39' putt, smashes it off the stick, and in or also to a foot. You lose or have to play extra holes even though he'd have faced an 8' putt to tie without the flagstick in the hole. That's a situation where the worse putter of the two benefits.

[Kalen Braley]

Interestingly enough,

I'm guessing most top notch players, who regularly hit thier shorter approaches very close to the pin, would prefer to pull it out from the fairway.  While its not common, I've seen several players on TV hit the pin from 100-150 out, only to have the ball ricochet 50 or more feet away, whereas otherwise it would have been within 5 feet...

P.S. Joe excellent youtube video. I would definitely be in the camp of 30+ feet away, keep it in, otherwise yank it.

[JESII]

why take it out even from 30'?

Since it can't hurt you, and can only help you… why not?

But it can hurt...see Matt Cohn from early in this thread.


You explain the lip out that gets help but I didn’t understand. Sounded like lip outs that are going way past the hole could be helped because they were in the air somehow?!?

[Steve Lang]

We've been simply playing which ever way is faster to maintain flow onto and off the green... no big deal really or rub of the green yet


I have had a handful of puts where the flagstick shadow was an aid, even when it wasn't in perfect line, that could have been a reason to retain the old rule, but is likely a threshold event??

[Kalen Braley]

I'm still having a hard time seeing how its an unfair advantage if everyone gets to leave it in?  If the numbers show its better to always leave it in, then I guess the ones taking it out are either willfully ignorant or intentionally shooting themselves in the foot..

[Peter Flory]

One additional question on tending.  Can your caddie or playing companion hold the pin upright for you and not remove it if they are instructed to do so?  Say it is windy out. 

[Mark Chaplin]

With amateurs leaving most putts short the pin being in will not help them.