Have you left the flag in?

[Pete Lavallee]

I've played 3 rounds in 2019 and was anxious to see how some of the new rules would play out. Leaving the flag in seems to be very good. Most everyone just leaves it in on putts longer than 10-15 feet. It certainly speeds up play as the putter who’s away can just putt! I’ve seen several long putts holed with no ricochets yet. Haven’t seen any put in it pull it out stuff yet either.

[John Kavanaugh]

I did it this weekend and didn't make a single birdie. I wanted to hit the pin so bad that I was blasting the ball way past on every attempt. It's quite the mind f...


Sad to say though I like it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I understand that the flag is supposed to help, but for me having the flag in is a deterrent. The best part of my game is the short game. If I am off the green and feel as though I can make the chip or pitch, I will take the flag out. When I take it out I seem to hit a better shot because I am looking to make it. Keeping it in on the off chance that a poorly struck shot will end up better because it hit the stick doesn't work for me.


I am not convinced that leaving the flag in will always speed up play. Let's say Jason Day is away and takes the flag out. Dechambeau plays next and wants the flag in. I'm not convinced that leaving the stick in will always speed up play.

[Joe Leenheer]

Three rounds in this year and several flagsticks left in.  Playing by oneself you feel much better about putting with the flag in and trying to maintain your golf purity. 


When playing with people, let them know you want it left in so they don't break into a dead sprint trying to get to the flag before your ball gets there!

[Sean_A]

Played once so far in 2019 with other people and leaving the flag in definitely kept things going.  Combined with ready play its an absolute no-brainer for friendly games.  It was easy to putt up while someone was contemplating a chip shot or just walking to their ball.

Ciao

[BHoover]

I played yesterday, and it seemed that we all agreed to leave the flagstick in for long putts. On putts inside 10-15 feet, most of my playing companions preferred to remove the flagstick. In my case, it didn’t matter because the flagstick is irrelevant when you can’t putt.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I understand that the flag is supposed to help, but for me having the flag in is a deterrent. The best part of my game is the short game. If I am off the green and feel as though I can make the chip or pitch, I will take the flag out. When I take it out I seem to hit a better shot because I am looking to make it. Keeping it in on the off chance that a poorly struck shot will end up better because it hit the stick doesn't work for me.

I've never understood that. Derive confidence from the fact that leaving the flagstick in helps you.

FWIW our advice is here: https://lowestscorewins.com/tips/putting-with-the-flagstick-in.

There are going to be times when you have an eight-foot putt and it would be smart to put the flagstick back in.

[Jim Hoak]

I have played a couple of times and I left it in on putts over 10 feet or so.
I like the  new rule and I think it will probably speed up play for our regular fourball, weekend play.
Speaking of that, I wanted to rant about something I heard Brandel Chambliss say.  Usually I like to hear his opinions, but he said that the new flagstick rule was only to make golf easier and the pros don't like it because of that.  Making the game easier was not what the USGA was trying to do; it was to simplify the rules and hopefully speed up play a bit.  But his comment was just one more example of someone focusing on the pro game to the exclusion of those of us who play golf for fun.  As has been said regularly on here, the pros are less than .0001% of golf, and I hate to see people focus on them when they comment on rules, architecture, equipment or whatever.  They are not what really matters to golf!!

[Tim Gavrich]

I left it in on a couple long putts where I was just trying to lag the ball up. I will say it clutters up the scene less to have someone else standing there tending the flag. But otherwise, I think I'm still going to take the flag out except on hellacious downhill putts.


Earnest excitement about the prospect of leaving a flagstick in to help hole more putts is yet more proof of the lengths golfers will go to to look anywhere but inward for the source of flaws in their game.

[Matt_Cohn]

The first putt that I hit with the flagstick in was a 20-footer that should have easily fallen in the center-right part of the hole at perfect speed. It hit the stick, rolled around between the stick and the lip, and went out the back. Won't do it again (although on a 50-footer, I'm not going to worry about it).

[Pete Lavallee]

It was easy to putt up while someone was contemplating a chip shot or just walking to their ball.

Ciao

Excellent point, before you would never contemplate pulling the pin, putting your 30’ putt then replacing it so someone can chip. Now just putt while your companion gets ready to chip.


My suspicion is there will be zero influence in helping putts go in or stay out. Only a shot that would go 5-8 feet past will be helped and truthfully how often does that happen!

[Sean_A]

Same for me, if I am in range to have a shot at making a putt I want the flag out...especially in summer when flag/stick shadows are cast.  I did wonder about courses which still use the heavy metal flag stick...can't imagine that is ever helpful!  Anyway, I will stick with my mantra of the flagstick never (there are always exceptions for those pedantically minded  ) helps a good shot.

Ciao

[Mark Smolens]

It was easy to putt up while someone was contemplating a chip shot or just walking to their ball.

Ciao

Excellent point, before you would never contemplate pulling the pin, putting your 30’ putt then replacing it so someone can chip. Now just putt while your companion gets ready to chip.


My suspicion is there will be zero influence in helping putts go in or stay out. Only a shot that would go 5-8 feet past will be helped and truthfully how often does that happen!

Zero influence? Sorry, but that's simply short sighted and demonstrably incorrect. It's not as if Dave Pelz went into his study with a predetermined thought on whether or not leaving the pin in would help or hurt. He just did the testing. And after thousands, many thousands, of repetitions, he determined that the ball has a 33% better chance of going into the hole if the pin is left in. . . with a multitude of variables having been tested (hitting pin squarely, or just grazing it). Everybody has a story about "that time" I hit the stick and a great shot bounced out. But do it 25,000 times and see what happens -- oh wait, Pelz already did!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Speaking of that, I wanted to rant about something I heard Brandel Chambliss say.  Usually I like to hear his opinions, but he said that the new flagstick rule was only to make golf easier and the pros don't like it because of that.  Making the game easier was not what the USGA was trying to do; it was to simplify the rules and hopefully speed up play a bit.

Brandel hate aside, my problem with this is that the USGA/R&A said when they released the proposed rules that there was "no advantage or disadvantage."

They were wrong. They were wrong then, they're wrong now. There IS an advantage. Every study done on this has reached the same conclusion, and the new studies continue to do so.

They dropped the ball on this one.

Earnest excitement about the prospect of leaving a flagstick in to help hole more putts is yet more proof of the lengths golfers will go to to look anywhere but inward for the source of flaws in their game.

I don't think that statement is fair. I don't think anyone's terribly "excited" about it. I'm actually rather bothered by it… Partly for the lies from just above. Mostly I simply understand the advantage and will explain it to everyone.

My suspicion is there will be zero influence in helping putts go in or stay out. Only a shot that would go 5-8 feet past will be helped and truthfully how often does that happen!

Benefits start to show up at about 4' past the hole, and people routinely hit longer putts 5'+ past the hole.

Same for me, if I am in range to have a shot at making a putt I want the flag out...especially in summer when flag/stick shadows are cast.  I did wonder about courses which still use the heavy metal flag stick...can't imagine that is ever helpful!  Anyway, I will stick with my mantra of the flagstick never (there are always exceptions for those pedantically minded    ) helps a good shot.

Virtually never hurts it either, and you're not good enough to guarantee you're going to hit a "good shot" all the time, either.

--------

Hey, ultimately, y'all do what you want… Fine by me. But you're willingly giving up an advantage on a good number of putts if you insist on taking it out.

If you're certain your ball is going to go 3' past or less, it makes no difference in or out. If you're not certain, in provides an advantage. And on short putts… in could be distracting, but it also gives you more aiming points (including the shadow, "right edge of the stick", etc.).

Zero influence? Sorry, but that's simply short sighted and demonstrably incorrect. It's not as if Dave Pelz went into his study with a predetermined thought on whether or not leaving the pin in would help or hurt. He just did the testing. And after thousands, many thousands, of repetitions, he determined that the ball has a 33% better chance of going into the hole if the pin is left in. . . with a multitude of variables having been tested (hitting pin squarely, or just grazing it). Everybody has a story about "that time" I hit the stick and a great shot bounced out. But do it 25,000 times and see what happens -- oh wait, Pelz already did!

Yep. And I can add a few thousand to that test. So can Lou Stagner. So can the video in the URL I added above.


https://twitter.com/LouStagner/status/1076968980156465152

[mike_malone]

We play ready golf with sometimes 6 guys so being able to putt without someone tending the flag was great this weekend.
 I think it helps me see the shot better not having a body there.

[Thomas Dai]

For anything longer than a few feet I’ll be leaving the pin in all the time when I’m putting.
As to Sean’s very valid point, leaving the pin in will help speed of play even more if the players concerned are playing ‘play when ready’ rather than ‘furthest away goes first’ golf.
Atb


PS - best not mention any implications for ‘play when ready’ and ‘back-stopping’!!!

[astavrides]

Zero influence? Sorry, but that's simply short sighted and demonstrably incorrect. It's not as if Dave Pelz went into his study with a predetermined thought on whether or not leaving the pin in would help or hurt. He just did the testing. And after thousands, many thousands, of repetitions, he determined that the ball has a 33% better chance of going into the hole if the pin is left in. . . with a multitude of variables having been tested (hitting pin squarely, or just grazing it). Everybody has a story about "that time" I hit the stick and a great shot bounced out. But do it 25,000 times and see what happens -- oh wait, Pelz already did!

That Pelz rule is as oversimplified and nearly worthless as his '17" past the flag' is the way to make the highest percentage of putts rule.
Whether the flag helps or not depends on which way it is leaning in the hole, which way the wind is blowing, what the flag is made of, how thick it is, how fast the ball's going, how bumpy the greens are, whether it is uphill downhill, sidehill, etc. Maybe Pelz went into all that in his studies. I don't know. All I ever hear is how he says it helps you to have it in.

[Doug Hodgson]

The flag-in rule was instituted as a local rule early last season at Royal Montreal and so has been in place for nearly a whole year already.  It is definitely more convenient when the away player can putt without waiting for someone to go over and tend the stick.  As far as I could tell no one seemed to be leaving it in for putts under 20 feet and the change in the rule had at most minor effects on play.  I didn't watch any of the club championship matches but didn't hear any flagstick-related stories in its aftermath...

[Jason Topp]

While I would guess it helps more putts go in, the biggest problem I had with the rule on my first round was figuring out whether to pull the flag for others on the green. 

[Steve_Lovett]

Leaving the flag in minimizes the courtesy of tending the flag for a fellow competitor.


I like the sound of hearing the ball rattle around the bottom of the cup when I make a putt, so I prefer it out.

[Pete Lavallee]

My recollection of the Pelz Study was that leaving the pin helps most with shots that go more than 5 feet past the hole. What serious golfer try’s to accomplish that!  If you believe in Pelz’s data you should be trying for 17 inches past the hole on putts or chips.


Overall I think this change has made a very positive impact on speed of play!

[corey miller]

A basketball player never attempts to bank in free throws but imagine how much harder the shot would be with no backboard?


I have a hard time seeing how it does not help the high handicap golfer.

[Peter Flory]

I'm guessing they haven't changed the conditional tend rule, right?  i.e. once you request a tend, you can't modify the instructions after the stroke.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

That Pelz rule is as oversimplified and nearly worthless as his '17" past the flag' is the way to make the highest percentage of putts rule.

It's not really. I am not going to go into the details, but a bunch of studies are all concluding the same thing: the flagstick offers an advantage. The faster the ball is going in, the more the advantage. It's not just Dave Pelz having done this study.

Ultimately, what you do doesn't matter to me… and you're welcome to not believe the many studies that have been done.

My recollection of the Pelz Study was that leaving the pin helps most with shots that go more than 5 feet past the hole. What serious golfer try’s to accomplish that!  If you believe in Pelz’s data you should be trying for 17 inches past the hole on putts or chips.

The further past the hole the bigger the advantage.

Regardless of what golfers are trying to do - they're not always successful.

I'm guessing they haven't changed the conditional tend rule, right?  i.e. once you request a tend, you can't modify the instructions after the stroke.

https://twitter.com/RulesGeeks/status/1080574538662981646

[Scott Warren]

I am not convinced that leaving the flag in will always speed up play. Let's say Jason Day is away and takes the flag out. Dechambeau plays next and wants the flag in. I'm not convinced that leaving the stick in will always speed up play.

You reckon a caddie putting the flag back in the hole takes longer than the pre-putt routine of the guy who is about to play? No chance.