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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Credit [again]
« on: January 06, 2019, 12:48:09 PM »
I hoisted John Kavanaugh's comment about the GOLF DIGEST list from another discussion:


I give you all the credit in the world for so generously sharing credit on your designs but Digest has gone off the charts with their recent top 100 list. I don't see how giving book writers and sprinkler adjusters credit does anything but rob your profession of credibility. It's not just your designs or Old Mac, every other course listed either has one too many or one too few people listed. Let the architect be the architect.


On a side note I often hear architecture snobs on this site state that the common golfer doesn't know or care who designed the course they are enjoying. At this rate no one will.




I was going to write Ron Whitten a note about that, but no doubt he will be overwhelmed with emails from people complaining about the list for the next two weeks, so I'll just agree with John here. 


I've always believed in sharing credit, but trying to list every name that maybe deserves credit for a course is a ridiculous exercise; they are equating the contributions of people who made vastly different contributions.  The new GOLF DIGEST version sometimes [but not always] credits a guy who built a couple of new tees on a course the same way as the guy who routed and built it to begin with.  [That is a specific example I'm talking about -- but I don't wish to focus on any particular instance of this, because there are so many major and minor injustices.]


So what do we have as a result? 


We are redefining what the role of architect means, and including components that were never included before, to the point that almost nobody could ever be given credit as the "architect" by themselves.  And on the other end, we are lowering the bar by listing people who got involved many years after the fact and had little to do with creating what's there.  Instead of writing about the on-site supervisors and the superintendents and the shapers who have contributed greatly, we try to shoehorn them into the "architect" box, as if that's the only place where they can be properly respected . . . and we demean what an architect actually does.


Not just anybody can figure out where the golf holes ought to go and how they fit together, both physically and golf-wise.


Of course, that demeaning has been going on for a long time.  Some of the designers whose names we know have subbed out the creative work in their firms to others, but still take all the credit themselves.  Famous players who design golf courses have very different levels of experience and involvement in projects, but most get the credit, because that's what they're paid for.  The ASGCA has given its younger members credit for courses which they supervised but may not have designed, and also credit for renovations which are a different kettle of fish.  I'm not saying these people couldn't design a golf course; anyone can design a golf course, to some degree.  I'm saying they didn't design some of the courses they're getting credit for.



When Alister MacKenzie showed up to Royal Melbourne in 1926, they put him with Alex Russell, the club champion, and Mick Morcom, the greenkeeper.  Russell had an interest in golf architecture, and had already done some noodling about redesigning the course to incorporate the new paddock of land at their disposal.


Most of Dr. MacKenzie's other consulting jobs in Australia consisted of a day or two on site and then a day drawing up some plans and a report, as he had executed most of his work in England from the start of his career.  But at Royal Melbourne, MacKenzie spent a lot of time with his two new collaborators, and to make sure they got the gist of what he was trying to teach them, they went ahead and built the green and bunkers for one of the par-3 holes together, while he was still there.


That hole is the par-3 5th West, still one of the most iconic holes in Australia.


That's the only piece of MacKenzie's design work in Australia that he ever saw even half-built.  Russell and Morcom took their own skills plus what they learned from MacKenzie and ran with it and built most of the other work for which the Doctor gets credit.  Sometimes they followed his plan; sometimes they did not.  And Russell went on to design a few other great courses on his own in the years afterward, most notably Yarra Yarra and Paraparaumu Beach, plus the holes in the back paddocks of Royal Melbourne (East).


Some believe that Russell should get the lion's share of the credit for all MacKenzie's work in Australia, because MacKenzie was involved so little.  A few would even go further and suggest that his other work proves that Russell was the real talent of the operation -- ignoring not only MacKenzie's role in planning, but also Morcom's role in getting things built.


I just look at it this way:  what was the role of each of them in 1926 when they met?  It really couldn't have been much more clearly defined.  MacKenzie was the architect, Russell the on-site representative who was going to ensure the design was executed properly, and Morcom the guy who was going to build it.  Two of the main reasons that Royal Melbourne is so great is that Russell and Morcom were both much better in their respective roles than 99% of the people who usually do them, but that doesn't make them the architect


Almost every project ever has had at least two people filling those same three roles, but in 99% of the other cases, you don't list those collaborators in the design credits.


And yes, Russell later proved to have great talent as an architect on his own.  But he had not done much of anything to improve Royal Melbourne before Dr. MacKenzie showed up and shared his years of experience.  Likewise, Morcom was a great greenkeeper, but he hadn't previously built any bunkers that looked like that; MacKenzie had been building them off and on for twenty years, and what do you know?  Just after he left, Morcom was suddenly great at building bunkers.






In the online version of this new GOLF DIGEST list, I'm listed in the credits for several courses where I would never claim credit myself:  courses where we have spent many days and months to restore the original work as best we could, and courses where my associates have made some small-scale changes and I've only been tangentially involved.  I'm not trying to minimize the work we've done on any of them, but I didn't design those golf courses. 


And neither did some of the guys listed for nearly every course on the list. 


Tom Fazio didn't design Pine Valley and Augusta . . . and I'm pretty sure they were ranked #1 and #2 before he ever got involved with either of them.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2019, 12:58:15 PM »
Tom,

You've made a lot of insightful posts on this site (obviously), and this one is right up there.  Very well said.  I think you should forward this along to Ron when the dust settles and see what kind of response you get.

P.S.  Tom Fazio agrees with you as well!  ;D



Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2019, 01:19:11 PM »
Tom I can tell you needed to get that out. More to your point on the plethora ofcourses where just by having a pulse, Gil Hanse (and others) arrives at a golf course boom he gets design credit for a course.

    Architect Tom Fazio boasts the most designs in the top 100 (13), including No. 26 Shadow Creek. Pete Dye and Donald Ross are next with nine.
 
 
    Gil Hanse boasts the most redesigns in the top 200 with 15, including No. 6 Merion.


To address the issue of what should be attributable as a recognized architect or co architect...I refer back to something I previously sited.This isn't unlike how research and development at a university is done and credited.  You can do your research, write up your research, but then to get credit you must publish your research in a recognized publication which is recognized by ISI (International Scientific Indexing).  You don't get credit for the research unless it makes it into a ISI recognized journal and to do so the researcher must pass the editors review, which is made up of peers for that particular field.  So that is the auditing built into the system for academic publishing recognition and works fairly well.

Where the ambiguity comes in is where "gifted" authorship is given, whereas a scientist is cited as a co-author of the research. There is a generally accepted criteria, which sometimes can be stretched for being a co-author:

Only those who meet all of the following three criteria should be co-author of an article:

"1) substantial contributions to conception and design, acquisition of data, or analysis and interpretation of data;

2) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content; and

3) final approval of the version to be published.

Authors should meet conditions 1, 2, and 3."



So 2 issues that have some ambiguity:
1. For new designs or redesigns what is the standard applied for who gets architectural credit?

2. For renovations should design credit be given?  What is the point at which one should get architectural credit?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 01:23:33 PM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Peter Pallotta

Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2019, 01:25:09 PM »
As the son of immigrant labourers, I have often thought it a shame that our culture's value-systems run so deep and so influence us all that even those who do honourable and honest 'blue collar' work (and who should be justly proud of it) can feel themselves 'demeaned' by not getting the 'credit' they deserve, the credit for work that (both the culture and, sadly, they themselves) believe is more praiseworthy and of greater intrinsic worth, ie that of the architect.
In other words, when an editor lists superintendents and shapers as part of the 'design team', he thinks he is praising them and giving them their due, but in implying that they should thus be 'recognized', he is actually diminishing and demeaning the value & importance of their current job titles.
I once had a discussion/argument with Tom Macwood (RIP) about this. While I forget the exact details, Tom was positing that more credit should be given a little-known greenskeeper for 'laying out' some particular golf course; and my point was that the very desire to give him 'more credit' spoke of a value system that was Tom's, and not that of the greenskeeper -- a value system that actually devalued the man instead of raising him up.
I used the example of my grandfather, whose first job after arriving in Canada was to dig a channel out, by hand, underneath a house's foundation and then crawl into that channel and place jacks by which the house could be raised up -- all part of the architect's renovation plans. If I took Tom's pov, I'd have to say that the architect's 'plans' were so much more important and valuable than my grandfather's sweat and muscle -- which I simply don't believe. In my mind, his task was as honourable and important as the architect's.       
P           

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 01:52:08 PM by Peter Pallotta »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2019, 01:28:54 PM »
Bringing this close to home for most of us. On LACC why does Shack get credit and our good friend Tommy does not? Tommy's contributions were unquestionably invaluable both in getting the work and during construction.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2019, 01:45:13 PM »
A point of genuine curiosity: Do Golf Course Architects sign and date their plans?


Ira

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2019, 02:11:56 PM »
Stealing credit that’s really due to someone else in not unknown.
So when pretty much the opposite occurs, ie someone in a position of leadership voluntarily and very openly shares the credit for something successful, appreciated or well received with the others who also contributed in some way it imo says a great deal about the individuals and especially the leader involved.
Thus those who volunatarily share credit imo should be applauded, those who steal the credit from others should be, well let’s just say treated in another manner.
As an aside, some leaders are good at selecting, or if necessary de-selecting, those they work or collaborate with. Given the work of Russell/Morcom, Hunter, Maxwell, Koonz etc, perhaps selection/delegation was a strong point of Dr Mack’?
As to golf course credit, who did the routing would seem to be a good question to ask.
Atb




Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2019, 02:13:18 PM »
Tom - it has always amazed me when visiting an architect's website how they often take design credit for a course that they "tweaked" in some way. If it's on their website they had to approve the listing, no?

I guess it is a function of the personal competitiveness of your profession... and, how some architects think listing these high profile courses on their curriculum vitae makes them stand out from the crowd.

Marketing!  ::)
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2019, 02:27:09 PM »
Maybe Golf Digest should link each course with an End Credit roll that lists exactly who did what and when, with "Architect" top center.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2019, 03:08:00 PM »
If I took Tom's pov, I'd have to say that the architect's 'plans' were so much more important and valuable than my grandfather's sweat and muscle -- which I simply don't believe. In my mind, his task was as honourable and important as the architect's.       
         


Peter:  I think you meant this to be Tom MacWood's point of view, rather than mine, but I'm not sure.


It's not my point of view.  I know for a fact that the creation of a great golf course requires great design, great shaping, and the work of a great superintendent.  I don't value one way more than the other, and I don't try to take credit for the shaping or the grass.  The problem is that golfers have been told to value "architects" and so everyone else involved wants to have an architectural credit, even if that's not what they did at all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2019, 03:13:21 PM »

So 2 issues that have some ambiguity:
1. For new designs or redesigns what is the standard applied for who gets architectural credit?

2. For renovations should design credit be given?  What is the point at which one should get architectural credit?




The problem with writing a rule is that you are setting up the approved way to game the system.


I'd like to say the standard for being listed as an architect doing substantial renovation to a course is by changing x number of holes, but that just encourages designers to propose the minimum required to qualify.


The other problem is that the people who own the course have an official say as to who designed it, as they market it, and sometimes that bears only tangential relation to the real truth.


The only way I know to fix it is to limit the number of people you can list, and thus force some value judgments on who is most deserving to be listed.  But, as we all know, the past three decades have been all about "participation trophies" and GOLF DIGEST now seems to be following that logic.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 03:16:30 PM by Tom_Doak »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2019, 03:19:05 PM »
T -
I meant Tom M's pov, in the context of that discussion we were having back then. Yours strikes me as the very opposite.
P

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2019, 05:35:37 PM »
The opening post was as interesting and insightful as anything I have read in a while. I think Tom is pretty much on target as far as when and if someone else deserves design credit as a result of work performed. I had one of the guys on the greens committee at Hollywood GC both now and during the work completed by Renaissance Golf in 2014 tell me a little about the process. He said Tom Doak was asked what his mission was with the restoration and if he wanted to share design credit. His answer and I’m paraphrasing was “I want it to play like a Travis course” and wasn’t seeking any design credit. Hollywood as it plays now and the work performed by Renaissance is fantastic. “The Old Man” would have certainly tipped his cap.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 05:49:39 PM by Tim Martin »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2019, 06:04:05 PM »
It has to be Whitten adding certain names thinking that some names will result in more bait clicks?


If you look at certain courses, Pinehurst loses Rees Jones name and adds C&C. John Harbottles name is off LACC. Trent Jones name is off of Olympic and I gag to see Bill Love.


There is no ryme or reason to see why certain names are on the list except for bad journalism.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2019, 06:16:59 PM »

If you look at certain courses, Pinehurst loses Rees Jones name and adds C&C. John Harbottles name is off LACC. Trent Jones name is off of Olympic and I gag to see Bill Love.



None of those guys' names should ever have been on there to begin with, really.  My former roommate John Harbottle rebuilt all the greens at LACC, and they have all been scrubbed and rebuilt again, so why would his name stay except for the sake of history?  I don't think he really designed anything differently at the time, but then again, the newest version is supposed to be a restoration, too.


I don't know if they put Dick Wilson's name on Bel Air, but we did our best to erase his input there ... and Trent Jones's, and George Fazio's, and Bobby Jones's, and Tom Fazio's.  [wow]   The back tees on #7 are still there, though . . . it was just too much fill to remove for the sake of principle alone.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2019, 06:21:50 PM »

If you look at certain courses, Pinehurst loses Rees Jones name and adds C&C. John Harbottles name is off LACC. Trent Jones name is off of Olympic and I gag to see Bill Love.



None of those guys' names should ever have been on there to begin with, really.  My former roommate John Harbottle rebuilt all the greens at LACC, and they have all been scrubbed and rebuilt again, so why would his name stay except for the sake of history?  I don't think he really designed anything differently at the time, but then again, the newest version is supposed to be a restoration, too.


I don't know if they put Dick Wilson's name on Bel Air, but we did our best to erase his input there ... and Trent Jones's, and George Fazio's, and Bobby Jones's, and Tom Fazio's.  [wow]   The back tees on #7 are still there, though . . . it was just too much fill to remove for the sake of principle alone.


That's the point. Does Whitten add these as a whim, from pressure of architects or for history?


I agree it should be the original architect and leave it at that.

Scott Stambaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2019, 08:02:57 PM »

I agree it should be the original architect and leave it at that.
[/quote]

Even this comes with some gray areas... (?)  Case in point MPCC Shore, Strantz listed as architect even though six holes occupy Baldock's original routing.  The course certainly doesn't resemble its former self, but shouldn't Baldock's name be a part of the architectural timeline as well?

Also, there are 13 or so courses that have the original architect and the renovation architect being the same person, i.e. Dye renovating a Dye... seems odd.

Last, two courses have their Golf Course Superintendent listed as a previous architect.  Why these two in particular, when most likely all 100 of the Superintendents at these courses have contributed to upholding each club's architectural merits.

Scott

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2019, 08:24:33 PM »
I posted this about 15 years ago. I do not have the pic of the famous boulder at Tamiment in the Poconos in PA ( RTJ, NLE)


Tamiment GC[/size]Some more history: Members of The American Socialist Society founded Camp Tamiment in 1921 as a vacation spot for union members. The Camp also operated a famous summer theater that helped develop the talents of such stars as Danny Kaye, Imogene Coco, Jerome Robbins, Woody Allen, Neil Simon and Carol Burnett. A book was written about the theater- “Every Week a Broadway Revue.” The owners hired Robert Trent Jones in 1947 to design their resort course. By the 1960s Tamiment was a thriving resort. Yours truly spent a summer there in 1964 as the person in charge of canoes on Lake Tamiment. I even shot some billiards with the world’s foremost authority, Professor Irwin Corey and saw Woody Allen do stand up comedy. The resorts success led to its downfall as the IRS revoked its tax-exempt status and the owners- The Peoples Educational Camp Society- were forced to sell. Today, there is little left of the original Tamiment except the lake and golf course and clubhouse. It was my first visit there since 1964. It was sad, very sad indeed, to see the ruins as a subsequent developer bought the place in 2005 and demolished the resort. Plans are on hold to redevelop the property. At one time, Tamiment was highly rated in Pennsylvania. The course is now operating with a barebones maintenance budget. According to locals, some days are better than other others. Clover was all over the fairways. Bunkers were in need of a total renovation. Greens were soft and were probably about a 5 on the meter. The tree-lined fairways were wide enough. The golf cars were at least 10 years old. BUT, the bones are still there. Typical RTJ with bunkers at 4 & 8 o’clock on the greens and sometimes behind the green at 12 o’clock. The greens were mildly undulating and pin positions behind the greenside bunkers were challenging. The course is noted for its long par5s- 14 @ 563y and 17 @ 585y. The 15th hole, a par4 @ 435y, is famous for a plaque affixed to a boulder near the tee that reads:“THIS BOULDER WAS MOVED TO CLEAR 14 GREEN AND PLACED HERE IN TRIBUTE TO THE MEN WHO TOILED TO BUILD THIS GOLF COURSE.”How many courses have such a tribute to workers who built the course? Given the history of Tamiment, this plaque was mandated.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2019, 08:26:13 PM »
My guess (just a guess - I have no involvement in this) is that the design attribution is provided by each course or club, just as it is when clubs/courses give course information to the NCGA or similar organization for the association's annual club/course guide.  I'd expect the club/course general manager or professional receives something from Golf Digest to verify/fill out.  Some GM's or pros might not have a full appreciation for the distinctions outlined in this thread.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2019, 08:51:20 PM »
What should be listed for MPCC Courses since they are so different from the original design?
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2019, 09:04:12 PM »
My guess (just a guess - I have no involvement in this) is that the design attribution is provided by each course or club, just as it is when clubs/courses give course information to the NCGA or similar organization for the association's annual club/course guide.


I don't think that's the case, since the green chairman of one of the clubs we have been working at emailed me right after the list was published to complain about the attributions for their course . . . that someone else was listed, and I was not.


Ron Whitten co-wrote the book on attribution and tries to keep it updated, and he is also the Architectural Editor for GOLF DIGEST, so you'd think this would be his gig [even if keeping track of the top 100 results is not his gig].  The decisions on whom to list and whom not to appear to me to have more to do with who insists on being listed, and who doesn't.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2019, 09:19:00 PM »
.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 11:10:44 PM by Kevin_Reilly »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Ross Harmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2019, 10:55:28 PM »
Seems odd to have renovations/ restorations that haven't even been completed listed in the rankings... nobody has yet rated Gil's work at Merion or Southern Hills!

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2019, 12:04:35 AM »
Bringing this close to home for most of us. On LACC why does Shack get credit and our good friend Tommy does not? Tommy's contributions were unquestionably invaluable both in getting the work and during construction.


I’d be curious to an answer here as well

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Credit [again]
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2019, 01:02:45 AM »

So 2 issues that have some ambiguity:
1. For new designs or redesigns what is the standard applied for who gets architectural credit?

2. For renovations should design credit be given?  What is the point at which one should get architectural credit?




The problem with writing a rule is that you are setting up the approved way to game the system.


I'd like to say the standard for being listed as an architect doing substantial renovation to a course is by changing x number of holes, but that just encourages designers to propose the minimum required to qualify.


The other problem is that the people who own the course have an official say as to who designed it, as they market it, and sometimes that bears only tangential relation to the real truth.


The only way I know to fix it is to limit the number of people you can list, and thus force some value judgments on who is most deserving to be listed.  But, as we all know, the past three decades have been all about "participation trophies" and GOLF DIGEST now seems to be following that logic.
So then a solution is to adopt what professional sports HOF do which is to induct their players with ONE uniform / ball cap from ONE team.  Also further to this is that the HOF selects which team was the most significant for that players career, with the player giving some input as a suggestion, but the HOF makes the final determination.

So this will cause a determination for which architect most contributed to it's PRESENT state. Not conditioning, or replacing greens etc. but the design.  By that metric any "renovation" should give the original architect the credit, and deservedly so IMO. If there is a redesign there has to be a determination made by XYZ entity which it appears right now is Ron Whitten.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine