Shrink the game

[John Kavanaugh]

Turn muni's into micro-parks. It's not even my idea. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Funny thing happened at my buddies 4pm fire pit club. One day their wives showed up at 3:45. The text string was hilarious.

[John Kavanaugh]

Can you imagine the value in a family being able to reserve a 100 yd x 30 yd manicured lawn with guaranteed isolation. It's more than a muni would bring. Golf course already have the infrastructure to distribute the people to their space. Carts and cart paths. The question is how many micro-parks can you squeeze out of an 18 hole course and how many slots can you book.

[Kalen Braley]

Funny thing happened at my buddies 4pm fire pit club. One day their wives showed up at 3:45. The text string was hilarious.

Barney,


Never heard about fire pit clubs, my only boys gatherings are poker games...well prior to a few months ago.  Never have to worry about the wife showing up to that one...poker bores her to tears.

[John Kavanaugh]

Funny thing happened at my buddies 4pm fire pit club. One day their wives showed up at 3:45. The text string was hilarious.

Barney,


Never heard about fire pit clubs, my only boys gatherings are poker games...well prior to a few months ago.  Never have to worry about the wife showing up to that one...poker bores her to tears.

I suppose you did not experience the death of the Elks Club stag night.

[Tim Martin]

I would rather see the game shrink than become corrupted for the cause of profitable growth.

Amen.

The question is, after all the recent and proposed attempts to change golf to appeal to "potential" golfers, will there be any "actual" golfers left.

I am curious how many here know of people who have quit golf -- or play less -- because it has been spoiled somehow by attempts to grow the game.

The only way I can think of that being true is that slow play is due in part to courses jamming more people out there than are able to keep the pace moving.  And slow play is not doing anything for the game, apart from making money for some courses.

With the coronavirus rules, I played by myself [with my wife walking] at Crystal Downs yesterday, 15 minutes behind a twosome in a cart.  I waited on them on some holes, and played eleven holes in 1:40.  If it wasn't an hour's drive each way, I would do that again today.

I have purposely pulled back from golf to a certain degree. The cost and culture seems to have passed me by. I play probably half as much as I did 10 years ago after I dropped my local membership.

Ciao

I have not now nor do I anticipate any cure in the future for my affliction. My abilities wane as time marches on but never my desire to play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Last week I played 36 holes a couple of days because I spent so much less time in traffic. How long can that model work?

[Peter Pallotta]

I don't know if the game has changed or if I have. It's probably me. I have less fun than I used to, but I get more pleasure. I love it less, but I like it more. It feels like I'm playing worse nowadays, but I'm actually scoring better. And I enjoy solitude more than ever, except on the golf course.

[V. Kmetz]

I don't know if there's a rightful manner to envision the future of the game...as being in a sustainable market? for personal enjoyment and discovery? an industry avocation? or whatever basis, but I'm glad I got the game as I got it and I don't think I would like it as much if it was so enduringly CURATED for me by all the attending parties trying to respond to proprietary market data...

... what I should like, what I shouldn't prefer, what's the "true" essence of its magnetism, how much time it should take, how much it should cost...

I was fine voting with my feet, whether slapping it at a ridiculous range, scaping out 36 at a 9 hole course, playing a lo-cost muni with 5 hour rounds, scoring a private on a Monday, saving up for a distance trip, discovering a hidden gem off the beaten path, hopping the fence at an exclusive "Top 100" club...

I'm happy I got in under the wire of relishing/scaling golf as it was found across all its elements,  ...mistakes, warts and all, bloated, overspends, non-compartmentalized, floral, over-treed, housing development profit-based, faux features,  the deceits of signature this and that, when you didn't join a private club unless you had 20x the dough to maintain its expense.

It was given well to me; and in my narrow capacities as a club worker, caddie, writer and recreational player, I hope I've done my own part to pass on rich things to the people who come later. I don't want to be part of a shrunken game as a legacy.

[John Emerson]

In addition to the points mentioned in this thread, let's remember that golf is hard.  Really difficult most of the time which presents barriers to entry.   You need a serious interest in the game to become competent.


On top of that the game is really ritualistic.  You have to know the basic rules and the game has defined etiquette followed more or less depending upon the course being played.   The ritual must be intimidating to a novice.


Yet, those are some of the aspects of golf that I love and I believe draws many people to the game on a lifetime basis. That and our courses - playing fields that vary every day.  They are firm, soft, cold, hot, tees move up then back, the wind blows, the greens are soft, fast, dormant  etc etc.  A wise man - Princeton University grad, a Doctor and long time Springdale member told me he was glad he played golf instead of Tennis like his brother because every golf course is different and EVERY Tennis Court is the same.  And golf courses are different every day.


So, I have thought for years now that GOLF IS NOT FOR EVERYONE !   Maybe the current generation cannot appreciate the challenge,culture, traditions and history of our game until they get a little older.


While I am not against growing participation in the sport, let's not corrupt the essence of the game to grow it.  Top Golf is probably fun and hopefully will usher in new players who will transition to taking up the genuine game.  But it is not actually golf.  If I worked for Titleist or Callaway or was in mid-career as a Club Pro I might feel different. 


So, I would rather see the game shrink than become corrupted for the cause of profitable growth.

I completely disagree with this statement.
Golf can be played by the young and old.  Putting courses are a form of golf.  Par 3’s are a form of golf.  Executive courses are a form of golf.  It is for everyone, but too often, what is built is for the few.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sounds like some great home schooling physical education credits.

[Sean_A]

I would rather see the game shrink than become corrupted for the cause of profitable growth.

Amen.

The question is, after all the recent and proposed attempts to change golf to appeal to "potential" golfers, will there be any "actual" golfers left.

I am curious how many here know of people who have quit golf -- or play less -- because it has been spoiled somehow by attempts to grow the game.

The only way I can think of that being true is that slow play is due in part to courses jamming more people out there than are able to keep the pace moving.  And slow play is not doing anything for the game, apart from making money for some courses.

With the coronavirus rules, I played by myself [with my wife walking] at Crystal Downs yesterday, 15 minutes behind a twosome in a cart.  I waited on them on some holes, and played eleven holes in 1:40.  If it wasn't an hour's drive each way, I would do that again today.

I have purposely pulled back from golf to a certain degree. The cost and culture seems to have passed me by. I play probably half as much as I did 10 years ago after I dropped my local membership.

Ciao

I have not now nor do I anticipate any cure in the future for my affliction. My abilities wane as time marches on but never my desire to play.

I have long suspected that I don't love the game the way many do. I wouldn't want to give it up, but at the same time it's hard for me to understand the current situation...and I am not a hard core ball roll backer because I don't think that IS THE PROBLEM with golf. To me this stance is a completely over simplistic representation of where golf is now. Likely the biggest disconnect I feel is the constant reliance on pro golf as a barometer of the game. I suspect this had more to do with age than anything.

Ciao

[Bernie Bell]

Interesting podcast, thanks.  Shrink the game - how many bunkers do you need?  What can you maintain with a staff of 4 down from 10?  In a tight financial spot, what are bells and whistles versus what's going to be good for our members?

This course, Cill Dara, is discussed starting about 26:45.  Master plan - "leave the sheep."

https://www.cilldaragolfclub.com/

[John Kavanaugh]

If you love the game you will have to pay more than just what it costs for you to play. For every 1% you contribute it will take 399 more golfers to make up the other 99%. Cause they don’t love it like you do.

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting podcast, thanks.  Shrink the game - how many bunkers do you need?  What can you maintain with a staff of 4 down from 10?  In a tight financial spot, what are bells and whistles versus what's going to be good for our members?
This course, Cill Dara, is discussed starting about 26:45.  Master plan - "leave the sheep."
https://www.cilldaragolfclub.com/

+1
atb

[Bernie Bell]

Interesting podcast, thanks.  Shrink the game - how many bunkers do you need?  What can you maintain with a staff of 4 down from 10?  In a tight financial spot, what are bells and whistles versus what's going to be good for our members?
This course, Cill Dara, is discussed starting about 26:45.  Master plan - "leave the sheep."
https://www.cilldaragolfclub.com/

+1
atb

More Cill Dara

https://youtu.be/UGp2BBjdzoo

[Pat Burke]

Grow the game was always grow the business of the game.


Keep up with the Jones’. Country club for a day
Fast and green as Augusta
Just like the tour


So many things that cost more while trying to make more. 


It’s been out of control for a long time. A lot could reset...........maybe

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat makes a key point: in America at least, the grow-the-game goals and dynamics he mentions are as old as golf itself. It seems that 'keeping up with the Joneses' is (and has always been) not so much an 'adjunct' to the game as 'part' of the game itself. The game of golf and the game of life. When we talk about changing/improving/saving golf, what we're actually talking about is changing 'people'.

[Tom_Doak]

When we talk about changing/improving/saving golf, what we're actually talking about is changing 'people'.

Bingo.


And people mostly resist change -- especially if you tell them it would be good for them!


If I suggested one of the courses where I consult go back to having fewer grounds staff, it might be the only time any of the greens committee pretended to be concerned where those guys would find another job.


The most bullshit phrase in capitalism is, "If it isn't growing, it's dying."

[William_G]

it's "green" committee FWIW
cheers

[Forrest Richardson]

Ken is obviously smart, but his wisdom fails on some points. If golf is a great game, a great pastime and a great way for people to socialize and experience a truly unique relationship with the environment — to solve a puzzle outdoors — then it should never be reserved, held back or minimalized for the masses. To the contrary, society should demand its great qualities.

I do not think golf will ever be more than 10-15% of the populus. Maybe Ken thinks 6.4% is ample???

[Sean_A]

Pat makes a key point: in America at least, the grow-the-game goals and dynamics he mentions are as old as golf itself. It seems that 'keeping up with the Joneses' is (and has always been) not so much an 'adjunct' to the game as 'part' of the game itself. The game of golf and the game of life. When we talk about changing/improving/saving golf, what we're actually talking about is changing 'people'.

Of course. It's people who shape golf and it's courses. Some folks talk about golf like it is a separate entity from people. Golf is golfers. However, it doesn't mean golfers don't need to change their attitudes. I strongly believe most will have to alter their expectations to survive as golfers. The rich guys can do as they like, that has always been so.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I believe there’s a very strong tradition of pitch-n-putt golf in Ireland even up to national level. Something more countries might benefit from, urban areas perhaps in particular. Indeed current Open Champion, Shane Lowry, often mentions how p-n-p golf was the starting point in the game for him. A few Himalayas type putting greens wouldn’t go amiss either.
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

I believe there’s a very strong tradition of pitch-n-putt golf in Ireland even up to national level. Something more countries might benefit from, urban areas perhaps in particular. Indeed current Open Champion, Shane Lowry, often mentions how p-n-p golf was the starting point in the game for him. A few Himalayas type putting greens wouldn’t go amiss either.
Atb

If we hadn’t hit COVID issues, our hope was to put a big Himalayas putting green to the left of the 8th at Strandhill, adjacent to and accessible from the main street at the seafront, for public use.

[Thomas Dai]

I believe there’s a very strong tradition of pitch-n-putt golf in Ireland even up to national level. Something more countries might benefit from, urban areas perhaps in particular. Indeed current Open Champion, Shane Lowry, often mentions how p-n-p golf was the starting point in the game for him. A few Himalayas type putting greens wouldn’t go amiss either.
Atb

If we hadn’t hit COVID issues, our hope was to put a big Himalayas putting green to the left of the 8th at Strandhill, adjacent to and accessible from the main street at the seafront, for public use.

Terrific!

Hope it still happens.
Atb