Sheep Ranch

[Brock Lynch]

My wife, two sons, and I just returned from a wonderful four days at Bandon. A few people told us that Sheep Ranch should open in 2020. Anybody know the progress on the work there?


Also, I believe that the original greens there were put in by Tom Doak. Is he consulting at all on the work there?

[Christian Newton]

Brock,

Looks like you caught great weather at Bandon!

The original course was Doak. The replacement is a Coore & Crenshaw project. Here's the thread you want: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65727.0.html

Cheers,
Christian

[Tom_Doak]

Brock:


I was just writing something about The Sheep Ranch [my version] this morning, for a book I'm working on.


When I agreed to build Old Macdonald, Mr. Keiser told me that meant he would get someone else to renovate The Sheep Ranch, if and when it ever happened.  It was one of the saddest trades I ever had to make, but it's what you get from doing the work that matters most, and I got a lot out of each of those projects, on a personal level.


As of two months ago they still hadn't started in on building the new course yet, but we always started construction there just after the first of the year, so I figure they are just getting going now.  I wish them the best of luck, but not without mixed feelings.

[Brock Lynch]

Cristian,


We were very fortunate with the weather. A couple of frost delays, but it was perfect out there after the frost cleared. We got some solid wind on the last to finish off the trip. Thanks for the thread direction.


Tom,


This was our third trip to Bandon and we like it more every time we go. Pacific is incredible and Old Macdonald is great as well. It must be very satisfying to know how much your work there is respected and enjoyed by so many people. I did not get the opportunity to get to Sheep Ranch on our visits, which I regret very much. The mystery and free spirit nature of the place made a great impression on many people on this site. I am sure that Coore & Crenshaw will do something special there. Trails is such a contrast to the rest of the courses at the resort and has wonderful green sites. I am excited to see what they do at the Sheep Ranch site. It will be fresh to me as I will not be affected by any prior experiences there.


On the "trade", what was the alternative? Working the Sheep Ranch project in the future and not getting to do Old Mac? Why did he let you get on the Sheep Ranch site at all? I'm guessing that this will be in your new book?


Cheers

[John Kavanaugh]

Most interesting thing of all, Doak was just one of five architects working on Old Mac.

[Tom_Doak]

Most interesting thing of all, Doak was just one of five architects working on Old Mac.

John:


I've had four or five or sometimes even more architects work on nearly every project I've done in the last fifteen years . . . my associates should all be thought of as designers in their own right, and they are way more talented than most.  It's been the secret to my success.


Old Macdonald has five names attached to it for the very reason that I had to forego doing The Sheep Ranch, and the reason I'm working for him again now at Sand Valley . . . because Mr. Keiser is stuck on the conventional wisdom of having different designers' names to market his courses with.  [It seems lost on him that the same guy(s) built two courses for him side by side at Bandon, and both are rated in the top 50 in the U.S.] 


Honestly, if Mike had figured out at the beginning that he'd be able to successfully market Old Mac with C. B. Macdonald's name, there would probably be a lot fewer people credited with the design.  But that's just my opinion from having been there a lot over three years to route it and build it.  Did I miss your involvement somehow?

[Tom_Doak]

On the "trade", what was the alternative? Working the Sheep Ranch project in the future and not getting to do Old Mac? Why did he let you get on the Sheep Ranch site at all? I'm guessing that this will be in your new book?

I suppose I had the alternative to pass on Old Mac and stay part of The Sheep Ranch instead.  But that was in 2008-09 and the future for new construction was looking pretty dire.  I'd have been an idiot to pass up doing Old Macdonald for the uncertainty of The Sheep Ranch.


We were hired for The Sheep Ranch just as we were finishing Pacific Dunes, by Mike and his partner for that project, Phil Friedmann.  Originally it was going to be separate from the resort, and private, so there was no conflict over what designer's name was attached to it . . . because it wasn't going to be marketed as part of the resort.


We built what we built for a very modest amount of money . . . I need to look it up but it was only 10% or 20% of the cost of Pacific Dunes, because there was so little irrigation installed.  All we really did there was shape greens and seed the place.  For what we spent on it, it had a pretty good run.  I wish it had opened more people's eyes to what was possible on a very small budget, but that's not a message that the golf industry likes to see publicized.

[John Kavanaugh]

Most interesting thing of all, Doak was just one of five architects working on Old Mac.

John:


I've had four or five or sometimes even more architects work on nearly every project I've done in the last fifteen years . . . my associates should all be thought of as designers in their own right, and they are way more talented than most.  It's been the secret to my success.


Old Macdonald has five names attached to it for the very reason that I had to forego doing The Sheep Ranch, and the reason I'm working for him again now at Sand Valley . . . because Mr. Keiser is stuck on the conventional wisdom of having different designers' names to market his courses with.  [It seems lost on him that the same guy(s) built two courses for him side by side at Bandon, and both are rated in the top 50 in the U.S.] 


Honestly, if Mike had figured out at the beginning that he'd be able to successfully market Old Mac with C. B. Macdonald's name, there would probably be a lot fewer people credited with the design.  But that's just my opinion from having been there a lot over three years to route it and build it.  Did I miss your involvement somehow?

My apologies, it's 6 architects involved according to Digest. I give you all the credit in the world for so generously sharing credit on your designs but Digest has gone off the charts with their recent top 100 list. I don't see how giving book writers and sprinkler adjusters credit does anything but rob your profession of credibility. It's not just your designs or Old Mac, every other course listed either has one too many or one too few people listed. Let the architect be the architect.


On a side note I often hear architecture snobs on this site state that the common golfer doesn't know or care who designed the course they are enjoying. At this rate no one will.

[Jim Nugent]

My apologies, it's 6 architects involved according to Digest. I give you all the credit in the world for so generously sharing credit on your designs but Digest has gone off the charts with their recent top 100 list. I don't see how giving book writers and sprinkler adjusters credit does anything but rob your profession of credibility. It's not just your designs or Old Mac, every other course listed either has one too many or one too few people listed. Let the architect be the architect.

How does GD credit the Nicklaus courses?  Is Jack named sole designer, or do they list the guys who actually route his courses? 

[John Kavanaugh]

The entire list is a bizarre read. In defense of Nicklaus, he is left off Pebble. I thought he redesigned a par 3 recently.


Enjoy: https://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/americas-100-greatest-golf-courses-ranking

[John Kavanaugh]

Speaking of Pebble: https://www.pebblebeach.com/insidepebblebeach/the-lineage-of-golf-course-architects-at-pebble-beach-golf-links/

[Brock Lynch]

John,


Thanks for another thread gone sideways!


Cheers

[Bruce Bearer]

The entire list is a bizarre read. In defense of Nicklaus, he is left off Pebble. I thought he redesigned a par 3 recently.


Enjoy: https://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/americas-100-greatest-golf-courses-ranking

Wow!  John, might I suggest this be a separate thread - you bring up a great point here...  Fazio takes out some trees at Pine Valley (which didn’t exist in 1913) and now gets “design credit” for the number one course in the world.


This is getting silly... Cypress Point was re-designed? Shinnecock and Merion too! 


C’mon Golf Digest

[Michael George]

Tom:


Thanks for your candid comments about Old Macdonald and the Sheep Ranch.  They provide an insight into your business and the practical aspects of working for Mike Keiser.  Having loved Old Macdonald, I think that you made the right choice in choosing to do that project. Kudos to you and Jim Urbina for the wonderful work there.  In fact, I think your work there had a large impact on golf course architecture.  The building of Old Macdonald helped lead the resurgence of Macdonald and Raynor designs, as people in the industry and otherwise uninformed outsiders (like raters) were exposed to their template holes and began searching out their courses.  Further, you have showed with many of your other projects what can be done with a modest budget.


However, I disagree that hiring different architects is not a good idea.   While, in the past, most golfers never asked who designed a course, it is starting to become fairly common now.  The "retail golfer" wants to say that he is going to a resort and playing a "Doak" or a "Coore Crenshaw" or a "Ross".  It is one of the unique things about the Monterey area - I can play Pebble, Monterey Peninsula CC Shore/Dunes and Pasatiempo (and Cypress maybe someday) providing totally different experiences.  On the other hand, I think Herb Kohler made a mistake in hiring Pete Dye to design all of the Kohler courses.  It is hard to argue with the financial success of Whistling Straits, but I think the Irish course would have been better served if designed by Coore Crenshaw or you.   

[Jeff Schley]

 On the other hand, I think Herb Kohler made a mistake in hiring Pete Dye to design all of the Kohler courses.  It is hard to argue with the financial success of Whistling Straits, but I think the Irish course would have been better served if designed by Coore Crenshaw or you.

I agree with this 100%.  Diversity is the spice of life and although I gladly play a XYZ course as my home club, if i'm going to a resort I want variety.  Same thing with those resorts that have a couple Fazios.  Or Hilton Head area private clubs.  would have been a good idea IMO to have diversity for more appeal.

[jeffwarne]

 On the other hand, I think Herb Kohler made a mistake in hiring Pete Dye to design all of the Kohler courses.  It is hard to argue with the financial success of Whistling Straits, but I think the Irish course would have been better served if designed by Coore Crenshaw or you.

  Same thing with those resorts that have a couple Fazios.  Or Hilton Head area private clubs.  would have been a good idea IMO to have diversity for more appeal.

Or just better courses.
Don't have to hire a different architect to get diversity-just need a better or more diverse architect in the first place.

[Tom_Doak]

I agree with this 100%.  Diversity is the spice of life and although I gladly play a XYZ course as my home club, if i'm going to a resort I want variety.  Same thing with those resorts that have a couple Fazios.  Or Hilton Head area private clubs.  would have been a good idea IMO to have diversity for more appeal.

I agree with you about diversity but I think it’s silly to believe that a great architect can’t do something different to complement his earlier work.  I’ve done it twice: Stonewall North after the Old Course, and Old MAC after Pacific Dunes.


Hiring a different minimalist than me would not have made those second courses better.  In fact I think the same guy is under more scrutiny to go outside his comfort zone - WHICH IS SOMETHING THERE SHOULD REALLY BE MORE OF- whereas the different guy will just sign his signature the same as he always does.


Obviously this isn’t always true and sometimes that second course just gets mailed in.  The bottom line as always is who you are dealing with and what their motivations are.




[EDITED because I messed up the quote/end quote thingy.]

[Ronald Montesano]

I suggest adopting a pseudonym. Dom Toak is waaaaaaaaayyyyyy too obvious.


Let's have a thread with suggestions for Tom's design pseudonym...or let's not.


Sheep Ranch will be something I will regret missing, but reading about it, and seeing photos of it, will be nearly as good. I hope that there is enough photographic footage to warrant a coffee-table book of sorts. I think it would sell at least one copy in my household.


Long live the ranch.

[Jeff Schley]

 On the other hand, I think Herb Kohler made a mistake in hiring Pete Dye to design all of the Kohler courses.  It is hard to argue with the financial success of Whistling Straits, but I think the Irish course would have been better served if designed by Coore Crenshaw or you.

  Same thing with those resorts that have a couple Fazios.  Or Hilton Head area private clubs.  would have been a good idea IMO to have diversity for more appeal.

Or just better courses.
Don't have to hire a different architect to get diversity-just need a better or more diverse architect in the first place.

It certainly isn't that one guy can't do both, it is for marketing and appeal to the masses.  Whoever is running for President doesn't pick their VP from the same state, why?  They want to appeal to a wider audience to attract the most votes.  There are some people that dislike Dye courses because they muffed a couple in the water one time and just made up their mind.  So golf is a business needing marketing and appeal for the broad public and the more marquee names you have I think the better from that perspective. 

That is why I like Keiser's idea of having a diverse group of architects at his resorts.  I do think maybe Hanse for Sheep Ranch would have filled a void otherwise not there instead of C&C, but C&C will do great work.  If he had gone with GH, he could feature something else.  I'm pretty sure they know what they are doing, but fun for golf fans to discuss.

[Roman Schwarz]

 On the other hand, I think Herb Kohler made a mistake in hiring Pete Dye to design all of the Kohler courses.  It is hard to argue with the financial success of Whistling Straits, but I think the Irish course would have been better served if designed by Coore Crenshaw or you.

  Same thing with those resorts that have a couple Fazios.  Or Hilton Head area private clubs.  would have been a good idea IMO to have diversity for more appeal.

Or just better courses.
Don't have to hire a different architect to get diversity-just need a better or more diverse architect in the first place.

The real underlying problem at Whistling Straits has nothing to do with Pete Dye's style, 1 vs. 2 design firms, etc.  There very clearly is the favorite son course and the afterthought.  Building 1 course in figure 8's along the waterfront (remembering that this was all flat to begin with...it's not a Bandon Trails situation where the inland stuff has character) to host major tournaments, and then building a 2nd inland that is built in the exact same "fake Ireland in Dairyland" style.  Unless you've been there, most people wouldn't know they have 2 courses on site.  You NEVER ask the "how would you divide 10 rounds" question between the Straits and Irish.  Would a different firm have even accepted the task of building the inferior course?  I think you'd have a different situation if the original Blackwolf Run composite 18 was right next door to the Straits and those were the only 36 holes.


To this day, the most memorable moment of my time there was standing on a bluff on the Irish course, looking east to the Straits and the lake, and then west over the original flat terrain.  It would be like if ANGC built a second course with a view of the Piggly Wiggly on Washington Street.

[Tom_Doak]

 I do think maybe Hanse for Sheep Ranch would have filled a void otherwise not there instead of C&C, but C&C will do great work.  If he had gone with GH, he could feature something else.  I'm pretty sure they know what they are doing, but fun for golf fans to discuss.

This quote is pure nonsense.  Unless you can explain WHAT void would have been filled, other than the void of Gil's name, you are just proving my point from earlier.


I DO think Gil's work/style is different than Bill's or mine . . . more different than the magazines have been able to discern.  But since people mostly equate him with being another minimalist, what would he have brought to designing The Sheep Ranch that Bill [or I] would not?

[Brock Lynch]

I don't know how owners of great pieces of land decide who gets to design/build courses on them. I do know that Bandon Dunes is missing nothing and is probably the best collection of 4 18-hole courses in the world. I don't know why Mr. Keiser has decided to build another course at Bandon. There are no gaps or voids to fill in. C&C will create something special on the Sheep Ranch site I am sure and maybe Mr. Keiser is just as sure and that's why he picked them. There is some risk in building this course. The mystical nature of Sheep Ranch will be lost and keeping the standard already set will be difficult to achieve. Can anybody out there think of another GCA that can better meet that challenge?
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[Jeff Schley]

 I do think maybe Hanse for Sheep Ranch would have filled a void otherwise not there instead of C&C, but C&C will do great work.  If he had gone with GH, he could feature something else.  I'm pretty sure they know what they are doing, but fun for golf fans to discuss.

This quote is pure nonsense.  Unless you can explain WHAT void would have been filled, other than the void of Gil's name, you are just proving my point from earlier.


I DO think Gil's work/style is different than Bill's or mine . . . more different than the magazines have been able to discern.  But since people mostly equate him with being another minimalist, what would he have brought to designing The Sheep Ranch that Bill [or I] would not?

Tom the void is the name, my entire post was on marketing to the public and not having repeat architects so as not to omit another marquee name.  It wasn't architecture based at all, that you or C&C can't replicate what GH would have done. If you want mass appeal being able to put a marquee name GH with the list already in place you increase your marketing appeal, simple. Would the Sheep Ranch course by GH do something that is sorely needed design wise? No, I doubt that, but MK could now claim he has what many would consider all the best present minimalist architects featured in his resort.  I like his idea of diversity and think it is good for helping gather more attention from golfers who are taking plane rides to have to come in the first place, so the more motivation via name recognition the better.

[Ira Fishman]

I disagree that the same architect cannot produce different experiences at the same resort. The three courses at Kohler that I have seen are quite different. Mid Pines and Pine Needles are across the road from each other but are different and distinct experiences. PD and Old Mac are right next to each other.


From a marketing perspective, Kohler’s success makes it clear that variety of architects is not necessary.


Ira

[Jonathan Mallard]

 

It certainly isn't that one guy can't do both, it is for marketing and appeal to the masses.  Whoever is running for President doesn't pick their VP from the same state, why?  They want to appeal to a wider audience to attract the most votes. 

There's also this small matter of the 12th Amendment:


The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;—The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;—The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding  on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having  vote; a  for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from  of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the  day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President. The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the  highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a  for the purpose shall consist of  of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.