Can you appreciate it, if you can't see it?

[Bob_Huntley]

Yesterday, some luminaries from GCA played Cypress in the morning and then joined me for 18 holes at MPCC.

Normally, October is our sunniest and warmest month, yesterday was as foggy as I've seen it in over a year. Those of you who have played CP, would be interested to learn that it was so thick that not only could you not see the trees down near the landing area, but the driving range was out of sight. It did improve later in the morning.

To my dismay the conditions were not that great in the afternoon. I was disappointed  that my guests could not really appreciate the beauty of holes 10 through 14, especially fourteen.

When they return to the East Coast, I do hope they will address my question, could you really appreciate the courses when not having seen them?

[A_Clay_Man]

Bob- I have previously seen this attitude before teeing off. Being a contrarian, I get giddy inside when the fog is thick and all you could see are outlines of treelined fields. I found the experience so spiritual that the gca luminaries should consdier themselves fortunate. In my Opinion this is the only way to see the peninsula courses. Similar to that galapagos lizard that breathes from its eye lids, one plays better when the swing is under control and lifting ones cranium is futile. Or out of ones rectum to see all the beauty.


Shiv- There is a true story about the Draper brothers playing in that pea soup and on 16 one of the brothers ball is leaning over the edge of the cup. No poop.

[Dan Kelly]

Bob, I would absolutely LOVE to play CPC in such conditions!  Every shot a blind shot?  As probably the biggest blind shot lover here, I'd give my right arm for a day like that!  

Think about it-- the only thing more fun that I can possible conceive in the entire world than playing #16 at CPC would be playing #16 at CPC as a BLIND SHOT!  (and, of course, going for it). WOW!  The anticipation if you lace one, but have no idea where it is would be out if this world!

Bar none, that would be the single greatest shot a guy could ever hit.  (as if it isn't already, but you get the point).

If Shivas nailed his tee shot (what? 6-, 7-iron?) into the fog at 16 the way he nailed this answer, he'd be sure to find it in the bottom of the cup!

But, of course, even Shivas would have to concede, I think, that he wouldn't choose such conditions if this were to be his ONLY chance to see Cypress Point.

[THuckaby2]

Sure, it would be fun, and yes, downright spiritual, to play CPC and MPCC in these conditions, IF YOU HAVE PLAYED THEM BEFORE.

If you never have, and this was your one-time chance to do so... well... I can't help but think you'd leave feeling you've missed something.

I doubt yesterday's luminaries will have anything but positives to say though, Bob.  

But I can understand your take though - if I was an MPCC member, I'd sure want them to SEE 10-14 on the Dunes as much as I'd want them to PLAY those great holes... The visual is so stunning throughout...

TH

[THuckaby2]

WHOA!  My brother and I cross in space and say basically the same thing.... Dick Daley - still think we are nothing alike?  

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Fog is fog in many ways but, there a drama and bearty when it is moving in and out somewhat quickly while having differnet degrees of impact on your vision as well as the sightlines for the hole. The fog Bob described would take away almost all the game, but the feel you get from a well hit ball without many of your senses to assist in your confidence as you address the ball. I am sorry anyone had to play Cypress as a once in a lifetime event in less than 200 feet fog. However that is still better than not to have played there at all.

[THuckaby2]

Dan is correct.  One would need a point of reference in order to appreciate playing in such a fog.  Of course, I play in a very similar fog almost every round.

What about the kid here?  I am so neglected.  

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Bob Huntley:

The first time I walked Pacific Dunes it was in a fog so thick that if I was playing rather than just out walking the course, it would have been difficult to avoid losing many golf balls, I suspect.

But, this may be why I came to appreciate the course so much. With the thick fog present, there was no way to check out the "views"; all one could do is study the ground. And what an impression it made!

So, I think it depends on what you are after. But, yes, I think you can appreciate it if you can't "see" it.

P.S. As for Cypress Point, I'll take a fairly good fog for the first 11-12 holes, but by #13 I'd prefer it burn off a bit.

[THuckaby2]

Shivas:

You have no way of knowing this, but we did cross in cyberspace.  That is, I was typing my post as he did his.  So you're just gonna have to believe me that mine was an original, but hardly unique, thought, and therefore I want my proper kudos!  

But you're right, having played CPC a few times, the thought of playing it "blind" does sound pretty cool... 16 particularly!

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

There is no fog thick enough (that I've seen) to not be able to see at ground level. So missing the course is not gonna happen. The first tee is elevated at CPC and it would be like teeing off into a giant marshmellow. (how cool) But I'll wager (if the tree's still there) that a faint outline of the tree that gaurds the right was at least somewhat seeable by someone.  Missing the beautiful vistas is missing the point of "the kingdom". First time or not. Just my "tough golf" perspective. As a matter of fact I would often tell people how unfortunate they were when it was bright sunshine.

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

In fog thick enough so that one can't see the tree on the right (and yes, it is still there, but remember it's about 200 off the tee), one will be able to see the ground, but that's it.

My thinking is that one would REALLY have to be into contours and the like for that to be "enough" for one to have the full experience at an incredible place like CPC.  Especially for the first-time, one-time visitor, the vistas do matter - a lot.

However, your unique perspective fascinates me, as usual...I am very interested what you mean by "Missing the beautiful vistas is missing the point of "the kingdom"."

See, I believe spirituality comes in many forms for different people, and the visual is an important part of this to many.  Hell, it is to me.  Have I missed the point of the kingdom all these years, all these hundreds of trips down there, where many times all I've done is sit and admire the wonderful views at many different places, on and off golf courses?

Remember, I'm NOT saying the visual is ALL there is, or is the ENTIRE point of things.  But to deny that it's a part of it... well... that to me is hard to understand.

Perhaps you mean something more, something different?

TH

[Mike Benham]

The level of appreciation would definetly be different with pea soup fog.  It could be better for some aspects of the course (micro details), and worse for others (macro view).  One thing for certain, a CPC caddie would be a must ...

How about the playing aspect ... if 16 green was fogged out, how would you play the hole?  Would you lay-up to the left on the Moriarty Peninsula or hit and pray at the green?

[THuckaby2]

Can't see how the presence of fog would do anything but make the shot EASIER... ignorance is bliss.... so it just makes the decision that much easier also, because then you're just going to base it on yardage... and as you know that does not begin to tell the story... so if that's all you have to base the decision on, then it becomes even MORE concrete... right at it, baby!

Obviously the issue becomes knowing the spot from whence to proceed for the next shot.. I guess a forecaddie would be required.

TH

ps - re the renaming of the layup area to the left, in the interest of peace I am making no comment, but please believe this is difficult to type as my sides are aching...  

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike,

"The Moriarty Peninsula," now that goes down as one of the best nicknames since the christening of "The Devil's As***e."

[Marty Bonnar]

Guys,
I have played Kingsbarns on both a good, East coast 'Haar' Day and in blinding sunlight. They are both worthy of comment and have equal merits in terms of aesthetic enjoyment.
The 'Clear Blue Sky' day allows FULL enjoyment of the surroundings, the Sea, the trees, (oops, only occasional!), the views, the 'greeness/brownness' of it all.
The Laurel and 'Haar'day (teehee!) brings mystery, suspense and a certain other worldliness that for me is one of the joys of Scottish Golf.
Fog has a unique ability to create an environment where you can concentrate yourself upon yourself and should definitely never be considered as a 'bad' thing, per se.
Either way, magical places to play golf will ALWAYS be magical places to play golf....

Martin.

[golfer4life]

Having played many rounds in the "forest" under such conditions, and having played CPC in a full white out, I would guess that a first timer would appreciate the course, but not as most.  The holes that I think would be most interesting would be the dunes section 2, 7-9, 11-14.  With mostly elevated tees on those holes and with dunes surounding the tee area, you feel like you are hitting into a total abyss.  A golfer would appreciate such a shot, but could you appreciate the carry on 15/16/17 without seeing the other side?  Or just the beauty of standing on 9 tee, with the pacific and the course at your feet?  Hard to say.  For what its worth, Spyglass on a foggy day is a fun, especially if you like a challege!!

[ian]

Bob,

I hate to disagree with Shivas and others, but I think they missed the best part of both courses. Any hole played blind is not as much fun as drinking in the setting. I can walk a great course and come away with a great deal of personal pleasure enjoying the framing and tie-ins, the rolls, the panorama. But "hit and find" does not make for a fun way to understand the strategies or the aesthetic pleasures of an architect. Tim is right, you will see more of the ground in detail, but agin the context of that shape, roll, slope does not come with the whole storey attached.

So NO they could not possibly appreciate what you have come to appreciate of both courses. Bob, I hope you can have them abck again.

Ian

[Bob_Huntley]

Ian
 
In this case they are going to go to the top of the list, I would have nothing else.

Bob

[Doug Siebert]

When I played Kingsbarns a couple years ago it was very foggy (the "har", they call it) since it really likes to settle in those valleys.  It very frustrating that on about six holes I couldn't see even 100 yards so I was hitting blind.  I had to look at the map of the hole in the yardage book and guess where I should be going.  Makes it a bit difficult if you don't hit it straight.....I was down to hitting a 4 iron a couple holes just to insure I could find the damn thing.

I'd hate to play CPC's 16th in a fog like that.  As if that hole isn't challenging enough without making blind and leaving you with no way to see where you ended up (am I short?  am I long?  am I one of the very few to have aced it?)  If I played it a semi-regular basis like some of the lucky folks here do it might be fun to play it blind but I'd at least be able to visualize it in my mind's eye -- that's what blind shots are all about.  Not just hitting off into space when you have no clue what's out there and no context for where it might end up when it doesn't come off perfectly (or even when it does)

[paul cowley]

...guys, along a similar note,as a young greenskeeper,myself and another would play 3 club golf at pebble during moon lit nights...a ball lost was a stroke ...got so we looked forward to each big moon ......nowadays we could use shivas and shivas irons to fill out the foresome ,but since irons probably would be hard to find ,maybe FBD would fill in.....you know , it would be just our luck that irons would show up ,probably 6 green , and join our group.........

[TEPaul]

Bob:

I know I could not possibly appreciate any course as much as when I could see it all bright and clear.

However, playing a golf course in the fog is a unique experience and one that truly is helped by knowing something about the course and obviously the more the better.

I've played the Maidstone Bowl (competition) in fog a few times but nothing like one of the days this year. It was a great experience really, requiring many things that aren't so necessary when everything is visible. I liked it and appreciated it but it's definitely not something I'd want to do on a regular basis. Basically it's really hard--really hard when all the shots are meaningful and it's hard to keep yourself together and not let miscues off of well executed shots in the wrong direction get to you.

It was interesting to see the Walker Cup at Ganton this year start the foursome competition in rather dense fog. The first group off, though, Kuehne and Haas ran into a real problem (including a sticky rules question) on the second hole because of the fog and the competition was suspended until the fog lifted.

[A_Clay_Man]

Th- My point was that you can see the vistas anytime anywhere, so if I was fortunate to get a tee time at CPC and its pea soup, I'd consider myself blessed.

The reality is that the fog ebbs and flows, in different spots from elevations and it rarely stays in all-day-all-the-time, so it will lift and probably way before 16.

Plus, you are either blessed (my opine) or if you really see it as "less than half full" you are likely cursed and aren't worthy of seeing it, (lots of karma) probably due to some hainus act of not thanking a fellow gca'er.

A "100 yard" limit on visibility shouldn't alter the "golf" just the experience. Some view it one way, aothers another, goes to sensibilities.

We will never get our virginity back but I'd take pea soup everytime, it looks sooo hollywood, circa 1930's.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Think about it-- the only thing more fun that I can possible conceive in the entire world than playing #16 at CPC would be playing #16 at CPC as a BLIND SHOT!  (and, of course, going for it). WOW!  The anticipation if you lace one, but have no idea where it is would be out if this world!

Bar none, that would be the single greatest shot a guy could ever hit.  (as if it isn't already, but you get the point).

I will comment more fully later when I have more time in reference to Bob's question, but I was fortunate to hit the green on 16 with a faded 3 wood into a slight breeze where you could see the outline of the bunkers through the fog. About 12 feet left of a left pin, two putt for par.

1 partner holed out from the right bunker for birdie ! 1 partner made his 3-4 footer for birdie, and 1 partner made 5 after putting one in the Pacific.

Group score on the 16th at Cypress in fog, even par.

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

You guys are such golf studs, your exploits on 16 certainly come as no surprise to me.  Well done.  Just one more question:  was there ever any thought of going left, for any of you?

Adam:

I get what you're saying - since it's more often sunny, a visitor playing in fog is getting a unique experience, so he is blessed.  That makes very good sense to me, well-said, brother.  Don't you think though, that even with this blessing, they still won't leave wondering what all the fuss is about re the great views they've heard so much about and seen so many times in pictures, and thus leave feeling they've missed something?

TH

[Michael Moore]

. . . was there ever any thought of going left, for any of you?

Sweeney hit a faded three wood to the left of a left pin - that's about as left as it gets!