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Paul Jones

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2019, 04:34:48 PM »
I'm having a heck of a time finding the list online, and there doesn't seem to be a Golf Digest app available in the app store.  Any tips?  I'd like to see the full list.  Thanks.
I think it is only available on their app (no app for android) and subscribers which I have.  I posted some screen shots over at golfwrx if you want to check those out.  With our photo sharing I can't post screen shots as I don't really know it is even possible. If anyone knows let me know.



The App is only for iPad - you will not find it on your iPhone.  I am not sure about Android.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Paul Rudovsky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2019, 08:44:44 PM »
To my mind Essex has been totally transformed by the work done over the past couple of years.  My bet is that it moves us a good bit more in the next two cycles...and perhaps into Top 50 US.


Myopia has been hard to get on...so it did not meet the minimum # of evaluations for inclusion in 100.  Specifically, two years ago Myopia was #5 in MA and Essex #6 in MA.  Yet Essex was on 100 Greatest and Myopia was not.  Reason is the number of evaluation to qualify for best in state is was below the number to qualify for 100 Greatest...MH qualified for Best in State but not 100 Greatest.  Everything in this paragraph references 2017 listings

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2019, 10:07:01 PM »
Someone please explain how Essex County jumped 18 points? I’m under the impression the course is little changed since Ross passed away?


Though I tried to explain this earlier vis a vis how the voting works (and how panelists tend to jump on a bandwagon now and again), it’s also worth revisiting Pete’s Original post.


To wit:  if the routing hasn’t changed and the greens haven’t changed (which i don’t believe they have), can the other stuff really “totally transform” a course?


Or was the course underrated previously because the panelists didn’t really recognize the great routing and cool greens until the makeover attracted their attention?


No intent to pick on Essex County here, I’ve always thought it was an excellent course.  Indeed the better a course is, the more I wonder how it could have been improved so much.

Nick Ribeiro

Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2019, 11:11:45 PM »

After looking over the list a few things interest me. Tom Fazio design consultant for Pine Valley and Augusta. I have not played Augusta but I have been there for the masters 4 times and I have been to Pine Valley to play, for the crump cup, and on a day the club was closed which was great to really get to spend some time on the holes. 2 courses that are complete opposites with the same consultant...

It's also interesting to see the sudden rise of Gil Hanse. He's been around for a long time and we all know the projects hes working on but this list really gave me that "where did he come from" moment. I am not surprised or in no fashion saying he shouldn't be there, its just the volume of courses on the list that surprises me, and the fact hes doing all these at the same time.. His sleep must consist of naps on a plane...


V_Halyard

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2019, 12:02:23 AM »
Just making sure you aren't disclosing information not yet public
Thanks Officer Jones  ;)


oooh
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Joel_Stewart

  • Total Karma: -7
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2019, 04:44:33 PM »
Someone please explain how Essex County jumped 18 points? I’m under the impression the course is little changed since Ross passed away?


Though I tried to explain this earlier vis a vis how the voting works (and how panelists tend to jump on a bandwagon now and again), it’s also worth revisiting Pete’s Original post.


To wit:  if the routing hasn’t changed and the greens haven’t changed (which i don’t believe they have), can the other stuff really “totally transform” a course?


Or was the course underrated previously because the panelists didn’t really recognize the great routing and cool greens until the makeover attracted their attention?


No intent to pick on Essex County here, I’ve always thought it was an excellent course.  Indeed the better a course is, the more I wonder how it could have been improved so much.


Seems to me that Digest panelists didn't know about this course and are now seeking it out. There's also quite a few new panelists due to GD allowing anyone to receive "the magic ticket" as long as they pay the ransom fee.


So far it hasn't worked at Yale and Pasatiempo which continue to be the most underrated courses on GD list.

Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2019, 04:50:54 PM »
Someone please explain how Essex County jumped 18 points? I’m under the impression the course is little changed since Ross passed away?


Though I tried to explain this earlier vis a vis how the voting works (and how panelists tend to jump on a bandwagon now and again), it’s also worth revisiting Pete’s Original post.


To wit:  if the routing hasn’t changed and the greens haven’t changed (which i don’t believe they have), can the other stuff really “totally transform” a course?


Or was the course underrated previously because the panelists didn’t really recognize the great routing and cool greens until the makeover attracted their attention?


No intent to pick on Essex County here, I’ve always thought it was an excellent course.  Indeed the better a course is, the more I wonder how it could have been improved so much.


Seems to me that Digest panelists didn't know about this course and are now seeking it out. There's also quite a few new panelists due to GD allowing anyone to receive "the magic ticket" as long as they pay the ransom fee.


So far it hasn't worked at Yale and Pasatiempo which continue to be the most underrated courses on GD list.


Joel-+1 on Yale. Golf Magazine has it at 55 on the most recent Top 100 U.S. list.

Jim Hoak

  • Total Karma: 5
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2019, 04:54:04 PM »
I agree with Joel that Yale and Pasatiempo may be the two most underrated courses on the list.  Any reasons suspected?

Daryl David

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2019, 05:08:41 PM »
Yale #51, Pasa #36 in GW Top 100 Classics

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2019, 06:58:54 PM »
I'm not a fan of the Pasa because the first hole is shit. I pretty much make up my mind that way.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2019, 08:12:31 PM »
Maybe JK, but Pebble #1 gives it a run for its money!

Gary Sato

Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2019, 09:36:26 PM »
I agree with Joel that Yale and Pasatiempo may be the two most underrated courses on the list.  Any reasons suspected?


They are public so don't have the gravitas. 


They are both hard to walk.


Conditions at Yale are suspect.


Both courses feature design features that are way out of the box that many can't understand.


Neither was designed by Tom Fazio.

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2019, 09:56:28 PM »
We played Pasatiempo plus four of the Top 50 (CPC, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, and Old Mac) in an eight day period two years ago. All are terrific courses of course, but only CPC tops Pasatiempo in my book.


I have not played Yale in 40 years so the memory is a bit fuzzily nostalgic (except for Number 4 whose terror will never go away), but agree it deserves better.


Ira

Sinclair Eaddy

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2019, 07:35:10 AM »
Approve a new restoration and master plan with a marquee architect (i.e Doak or Hanse) along with turf upgrades and Yale’s prospects would surely rise with GD.

John Emerson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2019, 08:32:51 AM »
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

goldj

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2019, 10:17:11 AM »
Someone please explain how Essex County jumped 18 points? I’m under the impression the course is little changed since Ross passed away?


First, don't forget, these 1-100 rankings blur that the underlying numbers are very close together.  Essex is maybe only rated a fraction of a point higher than it was before, as a result of some panelists going to see it for the first time.  But that's the difference between 91st and 73rd, because the courses in the bottom half of the list are bunched very closely together.

We did some work there years ago on bunkers and grassing lines, and my former associate Bruce Hepner has been back to clear away a bunch more trees and open up vistas.

But the change in its ranking is more of a change of perspective.  The pecking order of Brookline - Salem - Winchester was established by rankings from 30+ years ago, and panelists knew those were supposed to be the top three, so it stayed that way for a long time.  I suggested Darius Oliver go see Essex County and Myopia when he was making his big tour of America, and he rated Essex County as Ross's best course in America . . . so now there are a bunch of panelists who are freed up to vote that way, or maybe think they should.

Myopia's rise [76th from nowhere] is maybe even more impressive, but Essex County has leapfrogged a lot of sacred cow Ross courses from the old lists.



Could someone familiar with how Digest rates courses let me know how meaningful the small differences between  actually is.  For example, there are more than 30 courses which have scores between 60 and 61 and, when taking into account the second 100,  even more which have scores between 59 and 60.  Are these differences truly statistically significant or is it possible than one or two raters could make a difference in a coure’s aggretate rating? 


Truly interested in understanding this.  Thanks. 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 10:32:24 AM by goldj »

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2019, 11:17:42 AM »
Pasa.


That's easy to explain...housing course + Hole 6 and 7 tightness


Other than that, the back 9 just might be the most terrific 9 I've ever played, just brilliant routing and variety.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2019, 11:32:41 AM »
The best back nine ever doesn't end on a par three. Not if you are a serious golfer as most Digest guys are.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2019, 11:55:06 AM »
JK,

My quote was best ever that I've played...and my resume of courses played pales in comparison to most on this site.

P.S. But even if it was, was it the logical basis for why the best ever can't end on a par 3?  Must it be a long par 4 with water up one side?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 12:04:11 PM by Kalen Braley »

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2019, 12:01:42 PM »
If you don't already know you'll never understand. It's a good player thing.

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2019, 12:05:25 PM »
Karen,


I agree that the back at Pasa is brilliant. I too have not played as many top courses but I have played quite a few.


Brora ends on a Par 3 as do other strong courses.  But John is unfortunately correct that “serious” golfers tend to object to it. It is the reason the USGA insisted on changing the routing at Congressional and probably why they reverse the nines at East Lake for the Tour Championship.


There are some good threads somewhere about courses that end with Par 3s. Pasa 18 is a really good hole.


Ira

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2019, 12:11:25 PM »
Someone please explain how Essex County jumped 18 points? I’m under the impression the course is little changed since Ross passed away?



First, don't forget, these 1-100 rankings blur that the underlying numbers are very close together.  Essex is maybe only rated a fraction of a point higher than it was before, as a result of some panelists going to see it for the first time.  But that's the difference between 91st and 73rd, because the courses in the bottom half of the list are bunched very closely together.

We did some work there years ago on bunkers and grassing lines, and my former associate Bruce Hepner has been back to clear away a bunch more trees and open up vistas.

But the change in its ranking is more of a change of perspective.  The pecking order of Brookline - Salem - Winchester was established by rankings from 30+ years ago, and panelists knew those were supposed to be the top three, so it stayed that way for a long time.  I suggested Darius Oliver go see Essex County and Myopia when he was making his big tour of America, and he rated Essex County as Ross's best course in America . . . so now there are a bunch of panelists who are freed up to vote that way, or maybe think they should.

Myopia's rise [76th from nowhere] is maybe even more impressive, but Essex County has leapfrogged a lot of sacred cow Ross courses from the old lists.



Could someone familiar with how Digest rates courses let me know how meaningful the small differences between  actually is.  For example, there are more than 30 courses which have scores between 60 and 61 and, when taking into account the second 100,  even more which have scores between 59 and 60.  Are these differences truly statistically significant or is it possible than one or two raters could make a difference in a coure’s aggretate rating? 


Truly interested in understanding this.  Thanks.
I HATE OUR SOFTWARE, as every post seems to always get jacked up and I have to edit after the fact... anyways......

Golf digest is trying to double the number or raters to almost 1900 by they year 2020 and I think they have about 1100 now.  They presently have to have 45 ratings from their raters in the last 5 years to qualify and want to raise that to 70 which for statistics is good because the more data points you have the more regression you will have towards the mean and a normal distribution to mitigate the outliers.  45 is really only 9 a year over a 5 year period and I know many courses carefully manage how many raters they let on their course to include offering slots during their best conditioned months.

GD has 7 categories each with 12.5% going to the total, but shot values are doubled to 25%.

1. SHOT VALUES-How well do the holes pose a variety of risks and rewards and equally test length, accuracy and finesse?

2. RESISTANCE TO SCORING-How difficult, while still being fair, is the course for a scratch player from the back tees?

3. DESIGN VARIETY-How varied are the holes in differing lengths, configurations, hazard placements, green shapes and green contours?

4. MEMORABILITY-How well do the design features provide individuality to each hole yet a collective continuity to the entire 18?

5. AESTHETICS-How well do the scenic values of the course add to the pleasure of a round?

6. CONDITIONING-How firm, fast and rolling were the fairways, and how firm yet receptive were the greens on the day you played the course?

7. AMBIENCE-How well does the overall feel and atmosphere of the course reflect or uphold the traditional values of the game?


They are each out of 10 and each category is averaged for the final score, thus you can see this years category breakdown here: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-our-panel-ranks-the-courses



Also you have to take a look at their "raters", the qualification criteria is basically have a 5.0 handicap index and be willing to pay $1000 up front and $250 bucks a year in dues. They must submit a minimum of 12 (one rater told me), but others have told me 24 a year.

Statistically upping the minimum to 70 is going to help accuracy of the field on what their criteria is, however the criteria itself is hotly debated on this site and others.  Increasing their pool of raters is good otherwise they won't get the 70 scores needed every 5 years for some courses to qualify. 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 12:14:56 PM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2019, 12:24:36 PM »
Trying to put in the breakdown scoring for 2019 rankings let's see if it works:

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2019, 12:26:57 PM »
Anyone know how I can shrink what I paste into the threads using the
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Golf Digest New US Ratings Now Available
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2019, 12:28:31 PM »
Ira,

Its all good, i understand why many have a preference to not end on a par 3.  But the Good Dr thought it was OK, so that's certainly more than enough for me.

As for John, if he's deluded himself into thinking he has some higher understanding from having arrived at a so-called better player status, (despite his inability to articulate why), my only advice for him would be to go fetch his shinebox.  ;)