Is elevation required in the building of WILD greens ?

[SPDB]

Pat -
A quick diversion:

Using your strict criteria. How many greens can you think of that sit below their fairway (or surrounds). What does it represent as a percentage of the greens you know of, in rough estimate?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick,

The wildest green I've done so far, the fourth at Lost Dunes, is mildly elevated (it starts at ground level but works up into a shelf).

However, for the 13th at Barnbougle, we are building a very wild green in a natural bowl on a medium-long par 3.  There are some enormous contours between parts of this green, but I believe it will be more acceptable because you don't really have to worry about putting off the green:  the different pin placements (except for one) are in their own bowled areas, so you can putt aggressively over a ridge without worrying that you'll hit it over and out.

Brian Schneider and I have dubbed that green "Sitwell Park," because the only thing I've ever seen like it are those old photos of MacKenzie's long lost green.  It isn't THAT severe, but it's close enough.  I'm lucky it's in Tasmania so I won't have to answer frequent complaints about it.

[Mark_F]

Tom,

I very much doubt that you will get any complaints from Tasmanians.  They'll be, er, otherwise engaged with people VERY close to them.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

What inspired you to build a dramatic or WILD green ?

Was it the general property, your imagination, a unique green site location or a combination of the above ?

SPDB,

Since it diverts the thread, t's not a question that I care to spend much time on.  But, If you're familiar with Montclair Golf Club, there are a good number of those type of holes.  
NGLA has a few as well.

Let me also add # 1 and # 11 at Westhampton as semi-wild.

[SPDB]

Pat - Indulge me. It will help me understand what you are looking for. It is entirely germane to the thread.

Help me help you.  

which ones at NGLA? Any at the Creek or PRC?

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Start with # 16 and # 10.  

One could stretch and make the claim with # 5 as well

[Tom_Doak]

Pat,

It depends on the circumstance.

At Barnbougle, the green site is a huge bowl with a lot of natural contour.  I suppose we could have opted for a smaller green, but even then we would have had to flatten out part of it so the contours would be more in scale; and it is a long downwind par-3, so a bigger green made more sense.  The big contours were already there, although I suspect many other architects would have seen it differently.

At Lost Dunes, the wild green at the fourth was more from my imagination -- a reaction to being at the business end of a short, flat par 5.  On the other hand, the second-wildest green there, the eleventh, is a big natural bowl that I suppose could be compared to the 13th at Barnbougle, even though the contours are completely different.

My very first wild green, the fifth at Riverdale Dunes, was ordered up by Perry Dye who thought the course needed one.  I was actually pretty pissed off that he didn't like the previous green I'd built, so I overreacted and gave him a really wild one.  He never knew what he'd unleashed!

[Doug Wright]

Tom D,

I used to think the 5th at Riverdale Dunes was wild--I think  less so now because I've seen many other "wild" greens (13 and 16 at High Pointe come to mind) and my favourite wild green of all time, that par 3 on the back nine at Dooks.

Patrick,

Does 14 green at Augusta National count?

Best,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Wright,

You could probably throw it in the mix.

[SPDB]

Pat -
My point is, can't we throw most greens in the mix? To wit:
If a majority of the holes, by your definition, are elevated than what special quality is there to the "requirement" that WILD greens be elevated?

#16???

Still waiting on that ballpark percentage of holes with which you are familiar that aren't elevated (again, using your strict definition)

[Michael Moore]

No

Cape Arundel, #17

No