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Pat Burke

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Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2018, 01:35:09 AM »

Steve_Lovett

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Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2018, 10:37:22 AM »
I worked with Keith roughly 20-years ago when he had his office in Arizona - overlapping with the time he moved to St. Louis. I'm really surprised - never would've seen this sort of thing coming. He obviously had a massive lapse in good judgement, but I hope everyone doesn't jump to conclusion about him being some sort of ethically-absent monster. He'll be paying a big price and it's my wish as one guy to another that he gets to the other side a better person.

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2018, 01:25:14 PM »
If any architects want to “import” Cuban cigars PM me


Kidding of course...

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2018, 07:21:15 PM »
If any architects want to “import” Cuban cigars PM me


Kidding of course...
I'm not making excuses for anyone but the endangered species enforcers are interesting people.  I was given a small elephant tusk about three ft long in the 90's while in Egypt.  It was a gift and my wife took it thinking nothing of it since it had some carvings etc on it.  We cleared customs in Switzerland and there was no problem.  We were openly carrying it.  Got to Atlanta and they freaked and confiscated it and read us the riot act.  They had us fill out a form regarding how we obtained etc.  They kept it and less than a week later got a call telling me that since I could not "swear" it was ivory then I was entitled to pick it up and would I like for one of them to meet me half way from Athens to Atlanta.  That seemed strange so I said no and went to the small area where it was located.  That's when I realized I could have been set up if I had met the guy half way.    They gave it to me. 

Bringing in the shell from a dead turtle that died of natural causes is much less of an issue to me than some guy who is married with three kids at home going to a convention and being arrested for picking up a hooker or say some dude driving home from the club and receiving a DUI.  I doubt either of those would have brought this much attention.

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2018, 08:46:26 PM »
If any architects want to “import” Cuban cigars PM me


Kidding of course...


I'm heading to Cuba on the 27th......


Tyler

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2018, 10:43:25 PM »
Mike,  I wrote sympathetically and I meant it.  But, based upon the records quoted in the news article ( I rarely trust press analysis or coverage of trials based on personal experience) it is clear that this was a continuing criminal enterprise and not a set up.  While an agent posed as a buyer, Foster admitted to operating for several years and to being involved with the falsification of shipping records.  Accordingly, he entered a guilty plea and will be sentenced  in accordance with law.  If you disagree with the Endangered Species Act that is your right.  I do not.  But either way it appears that Foster knowingly violated the law. I am sorry that he succumbed to greed and I am sorry that a talented architect will be out of commission.  I am not sorry that the government performed its duty. 
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 04:12:52 PM by SL_Solow »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2018, 11:08:36 PM »
Shelly,Hope you are doing well.I understand. 
I'm all for protecting endangered species if they are endangered and if they were killed or destroyed in order to obtain. 
Some might find the Gibson guitar thing interesting:  http://articles.latimes.com/2014/feb/15/entertainment/la-et-ct-gibson-guitar-20140215  This seems similar.
In the case of various woods as described above a person could not be allowed to import such and yet they could have packing crates made from the wood and recycle when it cleared customs and be legal.  So I don't know enough about the Lacey act etc but I do think it is often enforced as needed.

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2018, 10:11:46 AM »

Around twenty years ago friend of mine here in Maine legally shot a black bear. Upon returning to camp with the disemboweled carcass and the urine bladder, the old-timers told him to get back there and retrieve the gall bladder before the coyotes got to it.


Over the next few weeks, he tried to illegally unload this gall bladder, which is worth five figures when it finally arrives in Asia, in various Chinatowns. In Boston he was asked if he was buying or selling, and was given the bum's rush when he indicated the latter. New York brought him a bit closer to success, but the frozen organ barely survived a day out of the freezer in an ice-filled cooler. Finally, after poking around long enough, he got a phone number for the proverbial "guy" who could unload this thing. He called, and ten seconds into his explanation was told "that's totally, totally illegal and I'm not going to discuss it over the phone." And that was the end of that.


Eastward Ho! is still my favorite course.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 10:34:04 AM by Michael Moore »
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2018, 02:05:32 PM »
Will no longer be working with OFCC.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2018, 06:42:10 PM »
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2018, 06:48:45 PM »
It surely sucks for his employees, especially at this time of year.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2018, 10:28:18 AM »
Will no longer be working with OFCC.

No longer at Congo either. Have not heard a peep out of my club yet.
Mr Hurricane

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2018, 10:29:49 AM »
Jim,


Your club never liked dogs anyways.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2018, 10:52:03 AM »
This tragedy has led me to do a lengthy introspection of my place in life and nature. I found this interesting article about famous people who don't like dogs. Churchill, really?!?


https://familypet.com/who-are-some-famous-people-in-history-who-were-known-for-hating-dogs/

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2018, 11:38:27 AM »
John,


You might want to read the article again ...


It makes the assumption that openly sharing your affection for cats implies you don't like dogs.
The correlation of the two doesn't make it a fact that any of those people didn't like dogs.


« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 11:45:08 AM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2018, 11:59:40 AM »
This event got me thinking - not about Keith particularly - but about what is the line in the sand.
What is the event that decides whether you work or don't work with someone.
What is the timeline on forgiveness, or what should never be forgiven.


It made me think back to an excellent Times Podcast indirectly on Louis CK.
It's not about the comedian, but about the club owner where he first returned to stand-up.
Noam Dworman's thoughts are eye-opening on explaining the complexity of punishment vs. second chance


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/podcasts/the-daily/louis-ck-comedy-cellar-metoo.html


Hope this helps others who don't know how to process an event like this.
#LikeMe
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2018, 02:03:58 PM »
This event got me thinking - not about Keith particularly - but about what is the line in the sand.
What is the event that decides whether you work or don't work with someone.
What is the timeline on forgiveness, or what should never be forgiven.




Of course the reason we have to answer these questions ourselves is that the criminal justice system no longer functions well enough to do it for us.


Many crimes go unpunished, if the perpetrator is white and wealthy enough to afford good representation.  A DUI would ruin the lives of 50% of Americans between the fines and the criminal record, but for the top 10%, it's just a couple months' salary and the inconvenience of having to have a car and driver for a while.  Their peers don't shame them too hard because "it could have happened to me," but they rarely offer help to that other 50%.


It was much easier in the days when we could all say "he did his time" and respect that by giving people a second chance.  Today, it's all about public shaming and people making their point about the nature of the transgression, rather than the individual case at hand.  And, of course, public relations . . . the clubs where Keith was consulting obviously believe they have to let him go to avoid being attached to the negative publicity of his case.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2018, 04:48:59 PM »
Well, Tom, I agree that our justice system is unequal and full of inconsistencies in the application of the law.  But I disagree with your opinion of the demographic who benefits- last I saw of Keith, he is rather white and I would bet that if he can write the government a check for $250k, he is comfortably in the "Top 10%".


Like Pete P, my heart goes out to Keith's employees who had several jobs lined up (I am aware of two clubs which still have not fired him, yet) and are most likely blameless.  Other than deterrence, what does the government gain by putting Keith in jail and preventing him from earning?


And I was under the impression that even the most serious of crimes, capital murder, are not deterred by the severest of punishments, death.  If Keith was a bricklayer working with Habitat For Humanity, would they throw the book at him?  What if he was of a different race?  Is he being made an example to inform others, or is he a trophy and a chit to justify a bonus for the bureaucracy?


We were talking about the offenses yesterday and how it might have come to the attention of the authorities.  Did Keith really do something to endanger the existence of important species, or was his flaunting of laws that many don't regard as reasonable or necessary land him in the can?  How many of us knowingly violate laws which we might hold in similar disregard?  There are more than 50 volumes of laws, way too many to count individually, 4500+ federal crimes alone.  With a prosecutor on a mission and an unlimited budget, are any of us safe from one day wearing stripes?


It is a very competitive market in Keith's line of work.  Wonder how he came to the attention of the government?


Trump has signed a bill to reduce the punishment for some very serious crimes that did not involve violence.  I hope that the authorities and the judge consider the nature of the crimes in meting out punishment, as well as who is being punished and why.
 

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2018, 05:22:26 PM »
Lou,  Before making what are patently offensive remarks you should visit a prison sometime.  Take a look at our bail system; there are people waiting for trials (innocent until proven guilty) for years because they can't afford bail.  I'll give you a hint; most are inner city blacks.   Public defenders are overworked so those who can't afford private counsel are often under represented despite the best efforts of the public defenders..  The suggestion that the system favors the poor non-white defendant is empirically incorrect.  I ordinarily would not comment on something that is becoming increasingly off topic but I can't ignore the nature and the tone of your remarks.  My statements are not based on observations from afar, I have done some pro bono work in this area and I teach with people who work in this area every day.  There is a lot to do to improve our legal system, particularly the criminal justice system, but few of the problems are related to mistreatment of the well off or of Caucasians as a whole.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2018, 06:40:41 PM »
Ouch, SL,aren't we being a bit hasty and harsh?  Did I hit a nerve?  Talk about projection and putting words in people's mouths.  I could respond in a manner and tone that would really set you off, but in the spirit of Christmas (and Matthew-" blessed are the peacemakers"), Happy Holidays.


SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2018, 06:54:49 PM »
Happy holidays to you as well Lou but I suggest you reread your post.  The import was clear.  But I concur that we should all wish for peace on earth and especially good will toward men throughout the year.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2018, 08:26:42 PM »
SL,


Nice try.  You must be blessed with the extraordinary ability to divine clear import from just a few words.  It must be unsettling to be constantly bombarded by all types of perceived dog whistles.  I thank God you are not a judge.   ::)   


Let's just pray for forgiveness, our own and Keith's, and wish him, his family, employees, and clients well.


Come to think of it, this may be a good time for another prolonged sabbatical!


Cheers.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2018, 08:31:19 PM »
Rather than go further, anything further will be off line

Sean_A

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Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2018, 09:57:43 AM »
Wild stuff.

What does forgiveness have to do with anything unless you are family, friends, co-workers or employees?  The guy was found guilty and should serve his punishment. Hinting that the crime wasn't so bad or that the sources for the bust are somehow tainted doesn't matter.

Its up to potential employers if they wish to hire Mr Foster.  If I were in the business I could see myself possibly hiring Mr Foster, but that is business and nothing to do with forgiveness. 

Sweet Lou

Reread your post...I don't know what you meant to convey, but it doesn't read well. 

Happy New Year
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 09:59:46 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Architect Keith Foster in deep trouble
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2018, 10:45:26 AM »
Sean,


Forgiveness is not a path to limit punishment. It's just a cool thing to do that beats being so damn judgmental all the time.

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