[Anthony Gholz]

Timber Point's seafront holes, including the Gibraltar, are still there ... with more foliage ... albeit scrub at ground level

[Stephen Britton]

Sean, construction started about a year ago at Annapolis Roads. Last time I went out there the 2nd green (Leven), 3rd hole (Alps), 4th tee, 6th green & 7th tee had been dozed over. The Redan green was still sitting untouched in the back ground.

See here  pic.twitter.com/63R4mgZ3wJ

Sad... I loved this place. Even after it had closed I would take my dog out there with a 7 iron and pocket full of balls and play the course.

I only have personal experience of one course of quality which is now gone...Annapolis GC just outside of Annapolis.  When I played this 9 hole C Banks gem circa 1995 the course was badly down on its luck with bunkers filled in etc.  Even so, it was plain to see there was something special about the place.  I don't believe the school which purchased the land has been able to build the planned athletics field.  What a great shame.   

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

One course that hasn't been mentioned yet is Waterwood National in Texas. 


I thought it had been totally abandoned, but yesterday in Houston someone told me the homeowners around it are still keeping it maintained in bare-bones style, for something like $100k per year.

[Sven Nilsen]

Good question. 


The Lido is probably the biggest loss for golf in the US. The ruination or annihilation of Augusta National has set golf back decades as well.

An interesting 1938 article that touches on both of the courses noted above (and due to the debate in this thread on Lido, it seemed pertinent).

Jan. 24, 1938 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -

[Jason Thurman]

Lido? Really? A course that closed 75 years ago?


I'm talking about real shit. Courses where I have real memories of actual rounds with real golfers are gone. I'm sadder about Hawthorne Hills than Lido. I didn't love Duckers Lake enough to drive 90 minutes to play it one last time before it closed a year ago, but I don't make the drive to see my parents very often either. It doesn't mean I don't love them more than I love The damn Lido.


If I remixed Tha Crossroads and made it about golf, Uncle Charles would obviously have to be Wolf Run.

[Pat Burke]

One course that hasn't been mentioned yet is Waterwood National in Texas. 


I thought it had been totally abandoned, but yesterday in Houston someone told me the homeowners around it are still keeping it maintained in bare-bones style, for something like $100k per year.

I played Waterwood in the late 80’s in the NCAA D2 nationals.
My older brother earned his tour card there I believe for the 1981 season.
I thought it was an amazing course.  The par three on Lake Livingston was a hole that was in your head all day until you reached it.
I remember needing to hit a lot of well thought out shots to play well.


It was a pretty cool place imo

[Jerry Kluger]

When I lived in DC part of the time I was a member of Indian Spring CC which had moved from its original location when they built the beltway around Washington.  The original course was designed by Donald Ross and it was closed long before I joined the club.  Ross did so many courses and I was wondering if any of his great ones no longer exist?

[Ian Andrew]

Box Grove (Toronto)


The course was a full eighteen hole course built for a single owner  in the early 1960’s. It was designed by a local professional named Jimmy Johnston who did a pretty good job.

I was lucky enough to play there quite a bit as a teenager and remember the course in detail. Interestingly it opened and closed on two par fives. The 3^rd and 16^th were both threes as well. The course opened above the valley and through a series of holes set in wonderful trees worked it’s way down to the Rouge River (a major river in Toronto) The highlights included the long par three third played beside an 80 foot bluff down the right side all the way to the green and the extremely interesting short par four 4^th.

The 6^th was the start of the famous run along the river that finished at the 13^th. The 6^th itself was an outstanding three across the river to a super cool green surrounded by bunkers. The 7^th played diagonally over the river and then played up the side all the way to a massive green 460 yards away from the tee (always was a par 4). The 8^th was a pitch par three back across the river with the Green hanging on the bank. Then there was a long walk to the short and wild 9^th that doglegged hard to the left to a really interesting elevated green.

The back nine begins at the top of the valley and plays down into the valley before finishing at a green set on the other side. The 11^th crosses the river, plays along side and then crosses back over to the green on the other side. The 12th was a long four where the river came into play up the left and crossed well short of the green.
The original 13^th involved a walk to a tee on the land above the valley. The player tried to decide whether to take on the elbow created by the River’s bend and the massive landmark Willow at the corner. You had to decide whether to play long and right or short and left which meant a 150 yard carry into a green set hard against the River. This was an exceptional hole, but finished up playing as a three down below before the course closed up.

The 14^th plays back up the valley with no river in play and is a terrific long four. My favourite was the 15^th a short drivable four, now gone, where the valley was in play for the entire length of the hole along the right. The 16^th was a long three over a large deep pond and was where I used to swim for golf balls. The 17^th was 625 yards right from the outset. The 18^th was a fine finishing five with wonderful bunkers at the corner of the dogleg.

It was a great course.

The course was sold to IBM (I’m guessing in the 1970’s) who operated it for quite a long time. It also had a 9 hole short course (nothing special) and playing fields till the 1980’s when it was sold for development. I think the valley land is currently operated as a nine hole course where you drive out and play back in. The current course has a new opener, then borrows 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13th and 14th. This is the bulk of what made it famous in its day. The remainder is all under housing with the exception of the 6^th which is fallow.

Other lost Canadian courses include Oak Bay in Vancouver and the original Dixie Course for Royal Montreal

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I lived in DC part of the time I was a member of Indian Spring CC which had moved from its original location when they built the beltway around Washington.  The original course was designed by Donald Ross and it was closed long before I joined the club.  Ross did so many courses and I was wondering if any of his great ones no longer exist?

I was a member at CC of Woodmore outside DC. It had been Prince George's CC in a location closer to town. It was Ross design that some said was the best course in the DC area. It even held the US Women's Open. The club was forced to sell it and moved out further.

[Tom_Doak]

Good question. 


The Lido is probably the biggest loss for golf in the US. The ruination or annihilation of Augusta National has set golf back decades as well.

An interesting 1938 article that touches on both of the courses noted above (and due to the debate in this thread on Lido, it seemed pertinent).

Jan. 24, 1938 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -

Sven:


Do you think the Brookyln Daily Eagle was a neutral source on the merits of Augusta [a course far away] vs. Lido [a course in their backyard which they promoted often, and may have been paid to promote] ?


Fake News isn't really a new phenomenon.  There has always been a difference between news and opinion, but many news sources blur the distinction.

[Sven Nilsen]

Do you think the Brookyln Daily Eagle was a neutral source on the merits of Augusta [a course far away] vs. Lido [a course in their backyard which they promoted often, and may have been paid to promote] ?

Tom:


Show me some proof that the BDE was paid to promote the Lido (in 1938, years after it was built) and we can start to have this conversation.  Until then, you're the one propogating your own fake news.


You seem to forget the northern interests that were involved with Augusta National.  It wasn't necessarily just a southern club.


With the effusive praise for Lido from the golf luminaries of the day, the place promoted itself. 


Do you think Donald Ross and Bernard Darwin were on the take?


Sven


Sept. 1922 Golf Illustrated -







Dec. 1922 Golfers Magazine -

[Tim Martin]

Do you think the Brookyln Daily Eagle was a neutral source on the merits of Augusta [a course far away] vs. Lido [a course in their backyard which they promoted often, and may have been paid to promote] ?

Tom:


Show me some proof that the BDE was paid to promote the Lido (in 1938, years after it was built) and we can start to have this conversation.  Until then, you're the one propogating your own fake news.


You seem to forget the northern interests that were involved with Augusta National.  It wasn't necessarily just a southern club.


With the effusive praise for Lido from the golf luminaries of the day, the place promoted itself. 


Do you think Donald Ross and Bernard Darwin were on the take?


Sven

Sven-For Tom to suggest that the BDE was getting paid off by the Lido is straight up conjecture. Further I wonder if he could provide the source material that confirms his contention that BDE "promoted the Lido often".


 

[Pete_Pittock]

Sagebrush.  The round was usually exhilarating, you probably had to manufacture a shot. Somehow I came off the course happier and feeling younger, and the apres golf was jus as good with its list of characters present. And poteen.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tim:


I have no issue with anyone claiming the BDE gave praise to the Lido.  It was because the course deserved it.  The same thing happened in the local papers for Oakmont, Merion, Pine Valley, French Lick, Cypress Point and numerous other courses around the country.


Ralph Trost (the author of the piece above and a long time BDE columnist) was a big fan of the Lido and one of its biggest proponents, but to suggest he wrote what he did because he was getting paid is irresponsible (to use a kind word) without any evidence.


The aspect of Trost's article that struck me the most was the comparison to the British seaside links.  This was the exact thing Darwin commented on 16 years earlier, and is completely in line with CBM's goals for the course - namely to produce a course in America that rivaled the conditions found on the courses he loved overseas.  The one aspect that no one really talks about in connection to the Lido was the wind, an aspect of the game that was more prevalent in GBI than on almost all US courses.  Ralph Trost wrote about this feature with a bit of nostalgia after the course was taken over.


The irony of all of this is that the Lido encompassed most of the features that Tom would consider ideal in a site for a new course.  A sand based site with wind.  I can understand his beef with the engineered aspect of how the land came to be, but that is a different debate than talking about the merits of the course as built.


Underlying the entire conversation is that CBM did what he did to build the Lido because the land he thought of as ideal for a course wasn't available in the US, so he created it.  85 years later another project would entire the picture, and we still talk about it as the only real place in this country to play golf the way it was meant to be.


Sven

[Tim Martin]

Tim:


I have no issue with anyone claiming the BDE gave praise to the Lido.  It was because the course deserved it.  The same thing happened in the local papers for Oakmont, Merion, Pine Valley, French Lick, Cypress Point and numerous other courses around the country.


Ralph Trost (the author of the piece above and a long time BDE columnist) was a big fan of the Lido and one of its biggest proponents, but to suggest he wrote what he did because he was getting paid is irresponsible (to use a kind word) without any evidence.


The aspect of Trost's article that struck me the most was the comparison to the British seaside links.  This was the exact thing Darwin commented on 16 years earlier, and is completely in line with CBM's goals for the course - namely to produce a course in America that rivaled the conditions found on the courses he loved overseas.  The one aspect that no one really talks about in connection to the Lido was the wind, an aspect of the game that was more prevalent in GBI than on almost all US courses.  Ralph Trost wrote about this feature with a bit of nostalgia after the course was taken over.


The irony of all of this is that the Lido encompassed most of the features that Tom would consider ideal in a site for a new course.  A sand based site with wind.  I can understand his beef with the engineered aspect of how the land came to be, but that is a different debate than talking about the merits of the course as built.


Underlying the entire conversation is that CBM did what he did to build the Lido because the land he thought of as ideal for a course wasn't available in the US, so he created it.  85 years later another project would entire the picture, and we still talk about it as the only real place in this country to play golf the way it was meant to be.


Sven

Sven-My only issue is that without the subject articles it's no more than a supposition.

[Tom_Doak]

Sven-For Tom to suggest that the BDE was getting paid off by the Lido is straight up conjecture. Further I wonder if he could provide the source material that confirms his contention that BDE "promoted the Lido often".

Yes, of course it's straight up conjecture.  That's why I said they "may have been paid to promote" it.


I have no interest whatsoever in going around digging up clippings from the 1930's to prove my point that the local paper was supportive of the course.  I have just noted that Sven and others often repost old clippings from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle here. 


The Lido was a fine course, and I've never said it wasn't.  That doesn't preclude the possibility that it could, at the same time, be overrated by people who never saw it and are projecting about it.  One thing we do know is that by January 24, 1938, when this story was published, the course was struggling to survive the tail end of the Depression.  How much longer did it last before it succumbed?  [I'm honestly not sure.]


Sven:


I doubt that the dynamics of getting favorable publicity in the press have really changed that much between 1938 and now.  A lot of publicity starts with free trips or as favors to people you know.


There was nothing in the story you posted that could be termed "news" -- Mr. Trost quotes a source I'm not familiar with who is pooh-poohing Augusta National, uses that to get around to his opinion that the local course is the best and most authentic links course in America, and at the end suggests that the course should host a Walker Cup Match.  Maybe he's just spouting off his own opinion, and isn't at all influenced by who he knows there, or the possible failure of the course. 


Calling it "irresponsible" for me to speculate about that [80 years after the fact] is just silly.  No one alive has anything at stake here, as far as I can see.  Indeed, I just looked up "responsibility" and one of the definitions is this: 


-  the opportunity or ability to act independently and make decisions without authorization.


Happy New Year to you and to Tim.

[Kyle Harris]

Tim Martin,


Somewhere in my archives I have numerous articles which compare the Penn State Golf Course as superior to Yale's Golf Course.

All those articles are from State College, PA area newspapers.


Also, the Brooklyn Daily Eagle wasn't the only paper in New York City.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:

What you call "pooh-pooing" seems to me to be a fairly newsworthy discussion of changes at Augusta National.

If that isn't "news," perhaps I need to go read my dictionary again. 

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:

FYI - this is who Bob Harlow was:  http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/bob-harlow/

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

FYI - this is who Bob Harlow was:  http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/bob-harlow/

Sven:


Thanks for that.  I knew the name was vaguely familiar but I had not seen it in a long time.


The following, by the way, is the third paragraph of his biography at the WGHOF in the link you provided:


Hagen was the box office, but it took more than a marquee for Harlow to sell the sport in America. Being the son of a minister certainly helped. Sitting through those Sunday services taught Harlow how to proselytize and raise money. He would go into towns and cities and convince the local Chambers of Commerce and the community leaders that playing host to golf tournaments was the way to go. He would get businesses, country clubs, radio stations and newspapers behind the event, and then he would go on to the next town or city, doing the same deal all over. The PGA of America hired him for $100 a week to do this job, but there were spinoffs that Harlow could cash in on. As the manager for Hagen, Paul Runyan, Horton Smith and Ed Dudley, Harlow practically controlled the show, so he would book these marathon exhibition swings where his players would play against each other, five to six times a week, for more than a month. They would do this traveling through the American heartland, states like Missouri, Illinois, Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah and Idaho.

As I was saying . . .

[jeffwarne]

The underfunded, ill conceived ruinovation of the Ross designed Forest Hills in Augusta, where Bobby Jones won his first of the 5 tournaments he won in 1930.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:


You're stretching.


Harlow passed on the news that Augusta National was going under the knife.  Was he wrong?


And you've avoided the earlier question.  Were Ross and Darwin part of this publicity machine you are trying to sell?  If not, how could you fault Trost for espousing the same views?


Let's simplify it.  Name one other course that existed in 1938 in America that came closer than the Lido to presenting the conditions players would find if they went overseas to play in The Open.


Sven

[Tim Martin]

Sven-For Tom to suggest that the BDE was getting paid off by the Lido is straight up conjecture. Further I wonder if he could provide the source material that confirms his contention that BDE "promoted the Lido often".

Yes, of course it's straight up conjecture.  That's why I said they "may have been paid to promote" it.


I have no interest whatsoever in going around digging up clippings from the 1930's to prove my point that the local paper was supportive of the course.  I have just noted that Sven and others often repost old clippings from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle here. 


The Lido was a fine course, and I've never said it wasn't.  That doesn't preclude the possibility that it could, at the same time, be overrated by people who never saw it and are projecting about it.  One thing we do know is that by January 24, 1938, when this story was published, the course was struggling to survive the tail end of the Depression.  How much longer did it last before it succumbed?  [I'm honestly not sure.]


Sven:


I doubt that the dynamics of getting favorable publicity in the press have really changed that much between 1938 and now.  A lot of publicity starts with free trips or as favors to people you know.


There was nothing in the story you posted that could be termed "news" -- Mr. Trost quotes a source I'm not familiar with who is pooh-poohing Augusta National, uses that to get around to his opinion that the local course is the best and most authentic links course in America, and at the end suggests that the course should host a Walker Cup Match.  Maybe he's just spouting off his own opinion, and isn't at all influenced by who he knows there, or the possible failure of the course. 


Calling it "irresponsible" for me to speculate about that [80 years after the fact] is just silly.  No one alive has anything at stake here, as far as I can see.  Indeed, I just looked up "responsibility" and one of the definitions is this: 


-  the opportunity or ability to act independently and make decisions without authorization.

Happy New Year to you and to Tim.

Tom-Happy New Year to you. I wonder what could be the motivation for suggesting without an inkling from anyone over the last eighty years that the author/BDE could have been paid for favorable press by The Lido for the subject article or any other. Anybody can get paid for anything. I already knew that.

[Tom_Doak]

Let's simplify it.  Name one other course that existed in 1938 in America that came closer than the Lido to presenting the conditions players would find if they went overseas to play in The Open.

Was that the point we were arguing about?  Okay, I'll concede on that one.  Lido's budget in 1938 was probably much more like a real UK links than the few other candidates in America.


Just, let's not kid ourselves about the unimpeachable sources you and Tim were defending earlier in this thread.  As Bob Harlow's biography illustrates, money and power and their influence on the press have always had an outsized influence on the reputations of golf courses and of the people in this business.

[Sven Nilsen]

Let's simplify it.  Name one other course that existed in 1938 in America that came closer than the Lido to presenting the conditions players would find if they went overseas to play in The Open.

Was that the point we were arguing about?  Okay, I'll concede on that one.  Lido's budget in 1938 was probably much more like a real UK links than the few other candidates in America.


Just, let's not kid ourselves about the unimpeachable sources you and Tim were defending earlier in this thread.  As Bob Harlow's biography illustrates, money and power and their influence on the press have always had an outsized influence on the reputations of golf courses and of the people in this business.

Smells like deflection.

So Ross and Darwin were wrong?  Because those are my sources.

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