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Ran Morrissett

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Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« on: December 18, 2018, 11:42:46 AM »
 … under Courses by Country and Architecture Timeline. Here is the link:

http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/talkingstick/

2018 has been the Chinese zodiac Year of the Dog. That is well and good but for me it was the Year of Rain.  :-\ Wherever I went, it rained and the worst was in mid-October in Arizona of all places. As we battled around the O’odham Course at Talking Stick one Saturday, there was up to two feet of standing water on a highway in Phoenix. I tried to buy rain gear at the turn (why pack any, I was going to Scottsdale!) but the pro shop didn’t have any – it never rains there. When I called Bill Coore to gain insight on the project, I mentioned how I was unable to get to the 12th tee to take a picture of the neat split fairway without fording through two to three feet of rushing water. He said, ‘Good, that meant our flood control pathways were working.’ This was not the conversation I intended to have - good grief!
 
Anyway, this is the first of three course profile updates between now and Christmas. Lots had changed since Brother John originally profiled it in 2000. Interestingly enough, the more conventional Piipash Course with its push-up targets and plantings has changed less than the more ground game oriented O’odham Course since my brother was there. We talk about why the two courses play more similarly today than before in the profile.
 
After retreating back to the resort to dry off, the sun broke through the clouds right before sunset. I hustled back to the course to grab a quick dozen photos. Coore & Crenshaw have been blessed with many great properties but this was not one of them. Yet, that’s is precisely why it is so interesting to study. As I write at the end of the profile, there is no arguing which is the better course between Sand Hills and O’odham. One started with a ‘10’ property and ended with a ‘10’ course. The other started with a ‘1’ property and ended with a ‘7’ course. Yet, it is fair to ask: which is the greater accomplishment? Happily, you don’t have to pick and the one thing for sure is that Coore & Crenshaw maximized each opportunity.
 
Best,
 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 06:30:07 AM by Ran Morrissett »

Dan Gallaway

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2018, 01:57:00 PM »
I just recommended TS North to a friend.  Curious to see how it’s received by someone who doesn’t have a passion for the architecture side of the game

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2018, 05:55:19 PM »
This is more or less my home course here in Phoenix. It gets a bad rap from some, for a variety of reasons. Some just find it visually lacking, because it's flat and there aren't really any views to speak of. Others think there's not much challenge because the fairways are wide and the green pretty big (of course it's that old C&C thing, you can make a lot of pars around here, but good luck going low).


I adore the place. It's best in the early fall, September or October, when it's dry (usually! sorry Ran!) before overseeding, because you get some bounce. But it plays quite well even when it's not especially firm just because the angles and greens are so good. The second, third, and 12th, which force the use of OB are, in a strange way, as much like something you might find at Hoylake or Carnoustie as anywhere in the States (they're not linksy, but where else do you find OB used like this?).

Tom_Doak

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2018, 06:00:43 PM »
Where did those names come from?  Do they mean north and south in the native language, or do they have different meanings?

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2018, 06:16:26 PM »
Where did those names come from?  Do they mean north and south in the native language, or do they have different meanings?


They changed the names a couple of years ago (perhaps not coincidentally not long after the course switched from being managed by Troon to being managed by Palmer's group). Oodham and Piipaash are the two tribes that comprise the Salt River community reservation where the course (and now adjoining casino/resort) are located.


They haven't really caught on, as you would expect, since the North/South names were around for the better part of twenty years and were more self-explanatory. Pretty much anytime you book a tee time it will clarify "Talking Stick Oodham (formerly North)" or something similar. But I suppose it's a part of the tribe wanting to have a stronger connection with the course, especially now that it's right there next to their successful resort hotel.

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2018, 09:14:00 AM »
I loved the 2nd hole the first time, and only time, I played it.  It was when the course opened, and I don't think there were any trees next to the OB stakes.  I am a bit disappointed to see the tree line, but other than it being different visually I suppose it plays the same today.  It is truly a hole where the golfer gets to decide how to play it. 
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Mike Hendren

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2018, 10:17:29 AM »
I agree Lynn.  What the photograph fails to capture is that with firm and fast conditions any tee shot heading left will go out of bounds - there is literally no curbing provided.  Many years ago when I could still play I drove the ball out of bounds, then reached the green in four with perhaps the best 3-wood I've ever played.  The hole easily makes my top ten list of 3-shotters in the states.

I highly recommend any student of golf architecture  play both courses at Talking Stick.  The South course is  surprisingly good and rare example of what C&C could do on a more traditional basis featuring pushed up greens. 

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Andy Shulman

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2018, 09:22:35 AM »
I played Talking Stick-North/O'odham just last week, having previously played the course a half-dozen or so times.  Conditions were excellent and the course played fast and firm (punctuated by some high first bounces) just a couple of months after being closed by floodwaters.  Hole #2 is just as scary as ever and getting too far right on the right fairway on #12 (like I did) makes for a very difficult approach into a green where the out-of-bounds is staring straight at you.  So, the plays seem to be either the left fairway or on the left side of the right fairway.


I played as part of a fast-playing foursome and we finished in about 3:45, which is it's own pleasure.

Doug Wright

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2019, 02:43:06 PM »
I highly recommend any student of golf architecture  play both courses at Talking Stick.  The South course is  surprisingly good and rare example of what C&C could do on a more traditional basis featuring pushed up greens. 
Bogey

I agree with this Bogey. I think Talking Stick South is one of the most underrated courses in the Phoenix area, and the contrast with TSN is really worth seeing.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2019, 05:30:06 PM »
Yeah, the South suffers in comparison with the North and for tourists it suffers by not being a desert course. But beyond that, from a strategic golf perspective it's one of the better public courses in Phoenix. Woe to you if you miss one of those little push up greens anywhere but short. Some really good holes on that side of the street.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2019, 09:58:37 AM »
Played North there yesterday. 90 minute frost delay due to overnight temps in the 30s. Yes, " The Valley of the Sun" experiences winter. Our 1045 tee time was delayed until noon and it warmed up nicely and the temperature on a beautiful sunny day reached about 60F about 4pm as we concluded our round. As always, I enjoy playing there- wide fairways , no rough, great greens, interesting holes and usually speedy play. Fairway conditions were spotty as an inordinate amount of divots were present but overall were good- fast and firm  Both courses were very busy as prime season has begun. I did NOT go OB on #2.  ;D 


I agree that South has matured nicely and will play there when it warms up.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Roman Schwarz

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2019, 03:23:41 PM »
This is more or less my home course here in Phoenix. It gets a bad rap from some, for a variety of reasons. Some just find it visually lacking, because it's flat and there aren't really any views to speak of. Others think there's not much challenge because the fairways are wide and the green pretty big (of course it's that old C&C thing, you can make a lot of pars around here, but good luck going low).


I adore the place. It's best in the early fall, September or October, when it's dry (usually! sorry Ran!) before overseeding, because you get some bounce. But it plays quite well even when it's not especially firm just because the angles and greens are so good. The second, third, and 12th, which force the use of OB are, in a strange way, as much like something you might find at Hoylake or Carnoustie as anywhere in the States (they're not linksy, but where else do you find OB used like this?).


I think you make a great point about the local vs. travel reputation.  I live in NC but get to PHX once or twice a year to visit family.  If I lived there, I would play both TS courses a ton.  I hadn't played Piipaash until a few weeks ago, but was pleasantly surprised how much I liked it.  All 36 holes there are soundly designed, you don't need a shagbag of balls, and the price is good.  If I was going to introduce my son to the game and I lived there, I'd go straight to Talking Stick.  It's probably telling that I never get paired with locals elsewhere, but generally do at TS.  It really is a clinic on how to build a great course with no elevation and just a handful of bunkers.


When I first started heading out to AZ, I played few repeats except for Wekopa's Saguaro course, which anyone who has ever played with me knows I have borderline inappropriate love for.  If I'm going myself or taking buddies, the menu almost always looks like this:


1) Saguaro, non-negotiable
2) Probably Wekopa Cholla because the 36 hole package makes it too good to pass up
3) Pick one from Apache Stronghold, Troon North Pinnacle, and either Talking Stick course


The first 3 have sound design plus good land.  I love Apache Stronghold (best $15 I've ever spent...$25 including the shirt!), but the drive often eliminates it.


Then we're down to choosing between Pinnacle and either Talking Stick course.  I have issues with Pinnacle...par 3's lack some variety (though it's better than Monument), the routing flow doesn't feel right since they've shuffled the courses so much (though better than Monument), having a woman sit by the pool reading her iPad in my line of site while I tee off (she lives on Pinnacle, but there's probably someone like her on Monument), Monument having both of the "drivable 4's" on site, and playability issues for weaker players.  On the other hand, much of it plays very similar to Piipash with the pushed up greens and closely mown (ryegrass) banks, plus you get all the stunning undulation.  I couldn't play there every day, but once every 2-3 years I find it interesting.  I can play flat, soundly designed parkland courses a lot of places, but I can't play something like Pinnacle that often and if I'm flying across the country or bringing buddies that never go to Arizona, unique is going to win often.  The fact that I'd consider Talking Stick vs. Pinnacle given the hands they were dealt in terms of land quality is a testament to what was achieved there.  And C&C didn't even have to build fake Afghanistan to do it!




Peter Flory

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Re: Talking Stick (O'odham Course) profile is updated ...
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2019, 04:22:43 PM »
I really enjoyed both of the TS courses.  Sort of parkland AZ golf.