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Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2003, 02:02:36 PM »


Mr. Kelly,

With all due respect, I think you have busted in here and popped off with a little too much gusto.  

You have yet to set foot on the property of Black Mesa.  You will NEVER, EVER convince anyone around here of anything without actually walking the property yourself.  How could you think you possibly know what the course is all about from some pictures and whatever your "other" sources of reference may be.

Secondly, why do you have such a problem with the site of Black Mesa.  Is it so much worse than any desert course?  I personally abhor desert golf but for what it is Black Mesa sets on a pretty cool piece of land.  Natural washes are a good feature for golf holes, Geroge C. Thomas certainly incorporated a lot of natural ravines in his LACC courses.  Same for Raynor at Shoreacres.

Is Estancia better?  Why?
Is Desert Mountain better?  Why?
Next you're going to bash Talking Stick.....or Apache


I will give you just a partial list of my "creme de la crap" friends; George Fazio, Tom Fazio, Jim Fazio, Robert Trent Jones Sr., Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player, Robert von Hagge, Tom Kite, Robert Cupp, Art Hills, Dr. Michael Hurdzan and on and on.... I have given you just 11 names and I wonder if anyone here would care to rate these "creme de la crappers"?

Yeah, I would.....they certainly don't garner MFA around here!

Von Hagge......ARthur freaking Hills???  Are you joking?

Mr. Kelly, do you like what Mr. Hills did with Bay Harbor?  BOb Cupp?  He's a local hero here in Portland but I'd be hard pressed to call his work some of the best around.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2003, 02:28:54 PM »
My bad, I didn't follow the proper parameters.  M. Kelly said, "Let's say on the scale from 1 to 10. 1 being who is hanging on just above the crapper, 10 being; who is drowning in the crapper."

Wait, I don't get this scale

Crap and crap not

George Fazio-Former pro golfer turned architect.  Claim to fame: Jupiter Hills.  Does he even design any more?  How do we know what's his and what's Tom's?
Give him a 5 on a 1 to 10 scale, 10 being best, 1 being worst.
 
Tom Fazio-While many here dislike his methods I find some of his stuff to be quite enthralling.  I get vastly tired of all the magazines sucking him off, however, so I'll give him an 8.
 
Jim Fazio-never even heard of him.  A third FAZIO?  Oh my

Robert Trent Jones Sr.-His work has made it possible for guys like Jack and Fazio to get 1 MILLION dollars per job. Great for the signature designer, but how significant is his body of work in the big picture? A lot of courses, great ambassador of the game, lovable man, but was he artistic?  tough but fair, but isn't there a reason guys like Dye, Tillie and Mackenzie have four and five courses rated above his best?  I'll give a 6 1/2

Jack Nicklaus-Maybe finally coming into his own.  Still, another former player turned architect.  WHo knows what he's responsible for considering the contributions of Muirhead, Cupp, Lipe, etc.  Wouldn't say his designs stir the soul.  Give him a 6
 
Gary Player-ditto

Robert von Hagge- 2, just above the crapper

Tom Kite-He designs golf courses?  1, in the crapper

Robert Cupp-Pumpkin Ridge, The Reserve, Wash. Nat'l, Langdon Farms.  I've played all of these.  It's ho hum golf.  Doesn't stir the soul, I haven't seen anything new in a while.  Great conditioning.  Mostly fair golf.  But I gotta tell ya from the pictures and what the guys around here have said, I think I'd prefer to play Black Mesa than another Cupp.  Give him a 5

Art Hills-Gosh I don't know.  Ho-hum.  3-4 range

Dr. Michael Hurdzan-I'll give him a 7.


To everyone but M. Kelly.  I've only participated in this exercise because someone had to do it.  I am reluctant to comment on anyone whose work I have not set foot upon, and even then golf courses should be addressed on a case by case basis.  Yet, a general feeling can be had regarding the work of the people you mentioned and I don't think anyone is unduly impressed with the 11 names he's mentioned.  

If that's the creme de la crap the creme de la creme might include Tom Doak, Gil Hanse, Bill Coore, Jeff Bradley, Bunker Hill boys, Pete Dye or Mike Strantz.

Yet, so what......this type of thing degrades educational discussion.  I'd rather get Mr. Kelly's explanation of WHY he doesn't like Black Mesa.  A sober version, this time.      
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Shaper

Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2003, 02:44:56 PM »
Dugger, I never said anything about anyone being the best at anything. I simply replied to a post by Clay Man suggesting that I must have worked with certain people in "the creme de la crap" era. And I guess that you agree. I can say that if you think Von Hagge and Art Hills are in the crapper, then you know something I and many others don't know. As for "busting in here", I was invited. If I have worn out my welcome, someone tell me and I'll go. As for you; I don't know you and will never lay a personal ambush BUT, I would like to know of your experience enabling you to make your comments, if you don't mind.

As for Black Mesa, if you want to call it bashing, go ahead. But I'm sticking to my guns. I have not commented on any other course as yet but in my opinion and if I see good reason, I will. I will be the first one to admit it when I have made a mistake and if I made a mistake with BM, I will apologize to everyone. I have been invited to the course many times now and I will respect the ones who invited me to have a look.
Thank you for your comments and assistance,
Michael Kelly

Eric_Dorsey

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Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2003, 03:10:07 PM »
If that's the creme de la crap the creme de la creme might include Tom Doak, Gil Hanse, Bill Coore, Jeff Bradley, Bunker Hill boys, Pete Dye or Mike Strantz.

what about Keith Foster?  Why does his name always get left off?  His latest desgins and re-furbishments are some of the best I've played as of late.


Mr. Kelly, I honestly think your blowing the whole Black Mesa thing out of proportion.  BM's greens no more severe than Paa-Ko's really I thought.  I'm a 6 and shot 89 @ Paa-ko from the backs  :-\, and 82 from the middles @ BM.  They weren't that big of a deal - really!

If you want to complain about a green and it's up-keep, what about the huge green @ Paa-ko? (short par-3, front 9)  That has to really add to the budget I would think over time - it was 100 yds long!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2003, 03:14:49 PM by dorse72 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2003, 03:15:54 PM »
Mr. Kelly,

I think most are finding your assessment of Black Mesa to be rather harsh, and unsubstantiated.  Will you address for us how it is that you can draw such conclusions without setting foot on the property?  Furthermore, what exactly are your conclusions again?  That's it's a bad site?  That the greens suck? That I'd like to know....and....why is it worse than Estancia or Desert Mt.

As far as everything else, I'm just playing the game you outlined.  Art Hills may build functional golf courses, but has he upped the artform of golf course architecture?  I'd like to think that part of the reason you are here is to explore, learn and discover notions of this type.  The fact that a course is well conditioned and drains is expected-par for the course, so to speak.  But we are not impressed with such trivial matters.  The blinkers on my car should flash when I hit the switch, that much is expected, but it doesn't make my car special or raise the artform of the automobile.  

I don't claim to have seen every example of every architect's body of work, but I sure wish I had.  That said, there is still a lot of "wiggle room," as my philosophy professor called it, for us to discuss things we have in common.  I can tell you Cypress Point is a stunning setting without ever having set foot on the property, who can disagree with that?

Thus, why is it that you have a problem with Black Mesa?  If you like the work of Art Hills and Von Hagge and not Baxter Spann, then perhaps we should get your version of what a great course entails?  Surely more input than two pin placements on the greens and no more than 3% grade.  

The standard has been set long ago around here that you don't lob grenades from the bar stool, as someone earlier so eloquently put it, and then not substantiate your opinions after the fact.  It's in bad taste, and the repercussions trickle down whether you want them to or not.

I am positive that you, Mr. Kelly, have a ton to contribute to this forum and please don't think for a second that I, of all people, am telling you to take a hike.  That's so not the case.  I'm just saying please justify your positions with the same reverance you would in a court of law, for example.  Heresy is dime a dozen, just like my opinions on Van Hagge.

Cheers!!

       
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2003, 04:09:30 PM »
A lot of well thought out comments have been offered here.  But, if some perceive that the thread has become confrontational, and too negative, based on Mr Kelly's first post as titled "Happy Hour" #1..." I would like to say that I will have to take responsibility for instigating it.  On another thread where Kelly intoduced himself as a shaper and seemed to indicate he is a well experienced and free spirit who is not shy to let us know what he thinks, I conjured up the scene from Strawn's book about the shaper-operator's life; nomadic in search of work on the widespread trail of golf construction projects from here to Timbucktoo; with the tendency or reputation for these guys to hit the "Miller Time" hour very hard after a long days work, and sling around some choice commentary about archies they have known and their prima donna styles and expectations of the work crew.  I felt like a good insight into "the life" of these construction side people and drawing out one of them (who seems eager to uncork), would be both entertaining, and a chance to learn something about their life on the ground as they really see it after a hard day's work perspective.

Well, Mr Kelly sure didn't disappoint.  He launched "Happy Hour #1..." and I think we pretty much heard it as if he were talking to one of the other crewmates sitting on a muddy track of his D6, sipping a brewski or passing a bottle of amber liquid intelligence between the occasional dislodgings of nicotine polluted exhausted tobacco mash. (a purely stereotypical image from one who only dreams of the excitement of living the life of some of the worlds real golf course builders).

But, now that we have seen the negative side of his impressions about the manner of some archie's/constructor's work (even though he unfortunately popped off on his first Happy Hour missive about a course he hadn't personally been present to evaluate...)  Perhaps he can go positive and tell us what he truly holds in high regard about some archies work, or the craftsmanship of some specific constructor...  Looking at Mr Kelly's impressive resume on his website sure doesn't allow me or anyone else to bag him as an uneducated, untrained, schlub.  He has earned a right to have a serious take on his profession, and has definitely put in the time in his formal education and his work life...

I do want to know if he feels like he has adopted a specific conventional style based on his most frequent site conditions and climate that he has worked with, associations with a certain class of architects, and techniques he has found most efficient on the wide array of machines he operates.  Does he like an archie that has very detailed button down drawings and phazing plans, where special change orders do upset us; or is he one to enjoy the creativity and extra time to adjust in the field with less of a prescribed set of plans and documents?  Isn't that the difference between the design builders like Doak, C&C, Bunkerhill, Hanse, et al; and the Wadsworth, LUs and such big construction companies of the GC building world?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2003, 05:15:21 PM »
I enjoy this discourse and I am glad to open up any sized can of worms I can. I appreciate the inside view and learning the perspectives of those so closely tied to the actual work of creating.

I meant no offense and certainly don't want my feet kissed, but in an honest open forum,(which i feel this is) I think follow-up is key. So, if in five years the greens are not 'for sheit' @ BM and Mr. Kelly's emphatic analysis is disproven, a simple acknowledgment is all that is called for. And vice a versa. Hell, I said the cubs would win, eating those words were easy because it was baseball, similar to eating these will be easy cause its golf.

Shaper

Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2003, 10:45:50 PM »
R.J. Daley,

When I first came here I had no idea of what I might or might not say, or if I would say anything at all. I looked around for friends and all. Started on the back pages and read nearly everything. I was quickly interested, could not get enough and swore this was the place to be. I believe it still is.

I don't think "Happy Hour" #1 has become too confrontational or negative. Damn close though, and I have been slapped around the room a bit but I'm fine. You don't have to take the blame for anything. All you did is give me a little nudge. The words were all mine. I thank you for your honesty.

God willing and the GCA door still open, there will be a "Happy Hour" #2 and on....but I won't make the same mistake as I did in #1 by not seeing the course (or whatever) first. If what I did is considered as throwing a grenade from the corner pub then I promise that the next one will be thrown from main street at high noon.  ;D

I have a very high regard for nearly all the architects I've met and worked with. And even higher regard for some I've never met. Not all of them are big names. My highest regard is held for those architects who are dedicated to their own perfection, personalities off site, solely breathing golf, walking their ass off all over the project every minute they can, asking questions, seeking suggestions, what will work in the field and what won't? And never being concerned about what another architect is doing somewhere. Mike Strantz is a perfect example of dedication to perfection. So is Steve Wolfard at D.A.Weibring, David M. Dale of Fream/Dale Golfplan. Don't get me wrong, I am not making a statement here as to who I think is the best at anything. Those three are dedicated and there is more like them.

I don't really want to comment much on the construction companies. I have seen nearly all of them in action and worked along side many. It would be a toss up for me between Ranger, Landscapes Unlimited or Joe Neibur as to which I think is most dedicated and performs really well.

I have done my best not to adopt a specific style but sometimes there is no choice depending on location only. Take for example; A Florida course near a beach. If you don't have some elevation to work with you will not come up with much other than looking like many other Florida courses. I left there many years ago because of it and headed for the mountains. Plus, I sure did eat enough sand down there. I'm still searching for that perfect combination of mountains and ocean with at least 12 holes running along the beach.

Ya' know, I do like an archie with a firm set of plans. It shows me he is in command, he believes in what he is doing but I could not work with him time and time again. No matter the terrain, they all have their own style and I'd get bored fast. Plus the real busy ones would have me living out of a bag, running from one site to the next, a few tees here, a couple of greens there. I've already lost two marriages out of this life long gig. For me it's one complete project at a time, most of the time. An archie who hands me a set of plans, doesn't say much and I don't see him but about every two or three months ain't bad either. I get the opportunity to do my thing, knowing damned well I can knock something out or down in 15 minutes if he doesn't like it. And I never get upset about it. Two things that do get my Irish up are clients/owners trying to get involved in the physical design process (where he thinks he can do better than the archie) and a construction company or team trying to get between me and the archie.

All and all R.J., I've had the time of my life in this business. Stress is happy stress as long as it's golf. I have been to so many places around the world, met so many people, played some courses many only dream of, met some mighty fine women, stayed in some 5 Stars from time to time and nearly all of it, and the best part, "All Expences Paid". All of that do to Archies. I can't knock 'em too much.

Michael Kelly

 




Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2003, 01:30:44 PM »
Michael, I know what you mean about Florida courses near the water, flat, fairly featureless.  (although I hear Ross did pretty well at Seminole which is right on the water in Palm Beach - I guess the dune lines make it less featureless!  :D)

Anyway, our course at Pensacola meets the description.  It's on the water, although it's the bay rather than the gulf.  It's quite flat.  The "features" are the slightly elevated, tiny greens with great chipping areas and deep bunkers guarding the small surfaces.  By small I mean average less than 4,000 sf, if you're on the dance floor you have a reasonable putt for birdie.

But last January I played a course in Scottsdale that is the prototype of how to design a course on a flat, featureless tract of land that is exciting, interesting, challenging and requires your thought on each and every tee box.  Talking Stick North by Coore and Crenshaw.  The use of central bunkers and hazards there has created a really super course, and with minimal earth moving.  The greens are typically not raised much, and I'd be surprised if they had to import any fill.  The bunkers are plentiful and deep and the dirt was most likely used to build up greens and tees.  A beautiful job, and one which should be an example to anyone looking to build on a flat site.

Have you seen this or other examples of such design work?  "Florida golf" doesn't have to be the same boring stuff all the time.

A_Clay_Man

Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2003, 02:06:27 PM »
MK- That was great! Thanx for the insight. I heard you shapers command some first class treatment. Any chance you worked with Don at The El Diablo (Jim Faz)?

Shaper

Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2003, 05:09:09 PM »
Bill,
   
   I also think that Ross did pretty well at Seminole (Juno Beach). That section of northern Palm Beach County has many small rolling areas that have been pretty nice for golf design, not like alot of others in Florida that just did not have enough in the way of material for a shaper like me to take a bite out of. And a little farther up the road in Jupiter as well. I've played Seminole on several occasions in the past and although it beat the hell out of me nearly every time, it still remains a favorite. I like Florida golf courses from a playability stand point and I have played much golf there. I was a member for some time at JDM (old PGA courses) and Frenchmans Creek (Jupiter). I did have the good fortune once of playing a round of golf with Sam Snead at PGA/JDM east course (1975). I thought that was the day of my life at the time. In 1991 I ran across him again in Japan and was able to play 9 holes with him in a promotional for the club (courtesy of RTJ Sr.). He made me feel like we were out on tour. When he popped one out in the water, you should have seen all the Japanese jump in and fight for the ball. A few holes later, I popped one out there. Again they jumped in and fought for (my) ball. Many had no idea I had been just the shaper on the course. Autographs, the whole bit. Sam said; "Just play along, no problem". I signed; "John Lennon Forever". Anyway, crazy days. (archies got me there).
Back to Florida; I have some personal favorites and I will recommend them to you since you live in FLA. and maybe you'll get the chance to play. I wish I could help you out with connections but I don't have much left down there. The above mentioned, JDM East (Palm Beach Gardens), Frenchmans Creek (Jupiter), Mayacco Lakes, Eastpointe and The President (West Palm Bch.). If you haven't already, you might enjoy them.

I don't know about Talking Stick but I can believe it. Coore and Crenshaw do fabulous things. Let me ask you what you feel about TPC Scottsdale? Have you played it? I love the layout of that course. You're right, Florida courses don't have to be boring. But you need fill material and most times that means lakes. I remember the serious problems going on in Florida just before I left (1988) about whether or not "anyone" would be able to dig another lake "anywhere" to fill land (especially for a golf course). Can you comment on this for me? What's going on in Florida these days?

Michael Kelly

Shaper

Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2003, 05:20:34 PM »
Clay Man, It hasn't always been a bowl of peaches & cream and sometimes even when it was, some one would run off with the bowl or push your face down in it. I swear I could write all day long of the horror stories in my travels. That just might be another "Happy Hour" post.

No, I did not have the chance to work with Don or Jim Fazio at El Diablo. But I probably could have. Jim has offered me all of his work in the past but I have always been busy elsewhere. I'm hunting Jim now, so maybe we'll get together again. Who knows.

Michael Kelly

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2003, 05:45:34 PM »
The point I was making about Talking Stick North was that you DON'T need a million CY of fill to make an exciting course on a fairly flat site.  C&C's use of central and diagonal bunker features, beautifully blended into the natural sandy perimeter in most cases, created a really first class course with net zero cut/fill.  From what I could tell anyway - there was no extravagant collection of mounds, no 50' tall tees, nothing that would have required importing hundreds of thousands of yards of fill, or excavating acres of lakes.

I really don't travel much down into Florida.  I'm much more likely to try to go someplace cooler!  Literally cooler, I really love to be in California or New Mexico for example in the summer time, cooler and drier.

Up here in the Panhandle I have heard good things about Fazio's Camp Creek but haven't played it yet.  Freddy Couples was signature "designer" on Kelly Plantation, haven't played it either.  

Pat Brockwell

Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2003, 04:44:11 PM »
OK, you wanted to hear from the supt @ Black Mesa, Michael.  I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage as I can't seem to get onto your website so I don't know EVERYTHING about you like you know everything about BM.  I can only imagine that your omniscience must be quite a burden, so far be it from me to assume your motives, experience or any other baggage you manage to pack on the back of your D-6.  I will tell you that the course is quite maintainable, even with tri-plexes on the greens (we used triplexes at the US Open in '77 and had trouble keeping a ball on the 18th at Southern Hills, so this is nothing new.  And just so you'll know, walking mowers have their own set of wear patterns too.).  It has been awhile since anybody was dragging gangs around to mow fairways (since you were 18 or 19 and I was 15 or 16 and raking bunkers by hand).  Modern equipment comes with plenty of options for 4wd fairway units (we need that at one place on #12 fairway and on the approach of #17) and extra power etc.  What saves us is that we have let the fine fescue around the bunkers go unmowed and to seed.  The trick there is judicious fertilzer use so the turf stays wispy, not too thick so it lays down.  It saves me about 80 man hours a week in bunker face mowing that they do at Paa Ko.  I've been working with a crew of 10 to 12 men and once the course is more mature we may be able to cut that by one or two, we'll see.  

As far as playability goes the folks that are really liking our course are the types that can have a good time even if their scores are not great.  The ones that gripe just want to be able to play without getting out of their carts and play shots that can be played on the practice tee.  Most folks are saying that they are having a great time playing shots they never had to play before.  I personally like to use my imagination and do something different from round to round.  I wonder if your affinity for an archy that has "a firm set of plans" is telling about your critisism.  BM isn't for the paint by numbers crowd.  

As far as working with Baxter I can only say that I would do it again in a minute.  He is quite gifted and the open attitude he brings along with his confidence in his ability made for a very enjoyable process as well as a great result.  As a superintendent and owner I really respect Baxter's ability to hear people and then judge the input on it's own merit, not just on the source.  I have not seen that quality in the other designers I've worked with.  It was always either only my ideas count or if you want that, give me this.  Baxter has the ability to to recognize and accept good ideas from owners, builders, supers and players. Rare.  I'm thinking that his best quality is a great sense of what will work more than an ability to calculate every aspect of design.  I say this only after playing and observing play here for a year.  It is common to hear people talk aboput the bad bounces they expect but what I observe is that there are far more good bounces out here.  I know that my own putting has gotten much better and it is because these surfaces make me feel, not calculate, the putt.  There is much more fun to choosing from a number of possible lines to the hole versus having only one route.  

Also, we have very good soil here.  The ridges are quite bony but the course is mostly routed in the nooks and crannies where the wind has naturally deposited some great sandy loam, in many places six to eight feet of it.  Lucky me. Drainage in this part of the world is pretty much natural, let the storm water go on down the arroyo.  The trick is to not let it move too fast and do damage with the velocity of the water, different than most places where you have trouble getting the water to leave.  

Michael, while you thread has been entertaining, may I suggest that for the next happy hour, you talk about what you know to be true from your actual experience.  I'm guessing that would be a deep well to draw from, and like most shapers I've had the pleasure to meet, I'm sure I'll enjoy listening to you go on at length about the sites you've saved, the careers you've made and the designers who are bound for perdition.  At any rate thanks for joining in and keep lovin' the game. Pat.
 

Matt_Ward

Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2003, 05:07:09 PM »
Pat:

Let me put Mr. Kelly's post in some sort of perspective -- if his comments were a baseball pitch you responded with a home run that simply left the park.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to GOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! ;)

Black Mesa is superb layout and to the credit of the ownership, design team and you as superintendent you have seen fit NOT to dumb down the course. There is plenty of playability at Black Mesa -- people have to remember the famed Clint Eastwood line -- "a man has got to know his limitations." If you play Black Mesa with that thought FIRMLY in your head you'll be miles ahead of the whiners and cry babies who need some BS excuse to rationalize why they didn't play well.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #65 on: October 30, 2003, 05:12:18 PM »
That was indeed a great post, Pat. Don't be a stranger! :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

A_Clay_Man

Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2003, 08:38:13 AM »
Concur Pat, Thanx for the info.

I have seen a few people(not from our outing) shrink at the blind shots and some of the severe undulations on parts of some fairways.

To a man, they seem to be echoing someone elses critique, and passing that along. Almost as though they had some agenda?? Or, as Pat states, they're the crowd who want practice range conditions, on the course. I say "take up Bowling".

There are few places that one can have as much fun as golfing one's ball at Black Mesa.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 08:39:02 AM by A_Clay_Man »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2003, 04:34:40 PM »
Adam, a great observation about GCA golfers -- they aren't fazed by blind shots or less than optimal conditions which are firm and fast.  For example, I absolutely loved Apache Stronghold and the less than perfect fairways caused me little heartburn.  That first tee shot at Black Mesa is such a kick in the ass that it's a good thing Baxter flipped the nines.  #10 with the mesa in the distance is a great looking hole, also with a blind tee shot down the left side, but #1 with that ridge staring at you says, "Let's get it on, big boy!"  8)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 04:37:36 PM by Bill_McBride »

Matt_Ward

Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2003, 08:23:47 PM »
Bill:

Given what you NOW know about Black Mesa did you believe what you read prior to going there was on target, above reason or even slightly underrated?

Be curious to your thoughts because I have heard some comments from a few respected people who make the point that the green contours on a few holes at BM are a bit "over-the-top." I don't buy it for a manosecond.

One other thing -- I applaud your gung-ho spirit regarding the 1st and 10th holes -- they are both unique and fun holes! ;)

Bill_McBride

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Re:"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2003, 09:16:59 PM »
Matt, I was intrigued by Black Mesa going up there, and not disappointed in the slightest.  If anything, it exceeded my expectations because I haven't played desert courses in the past that were as much fun to play.  Of course you don't want to hit the ball too far off the irrigated parts of the course!  The only desert course which I enjoyed as much is Apache Stronghold, which I compare very favorably with Black Mesa.  I think the more you play Black Mesa the more you will avoid the wilder green contours.  Of course my 36 holes did start with a 4-putt on #1 after what I thought was a good PW to 20 feet!  But it would have been better to miss short than be in that particular area 20' behind the hole.