"Happy Hour" #1...Black Mesa...you have got to be sh..... me!!!

[Shaper]

Hello All, first I'd like to say that I am not here to bash anyone personally. And Mr. Spann, I think it was real nice of you to pay tribute to Mike Strantz. He is the cats ass at the present time. I don't say that because he is a friend of mine, Hell!, I have not seen him in twenty years but I have seen his work. Having said that, I'm going to throw a big hunk of cow shit in a high speed fan after my hot, humid, filthy dirty, stinkin' diesel fuel suckin' day.

Black Mesa.... you have got to be shittin' me !!!
I just left their website after clicking on pics of all 18 holes and then reading a half a mile of post text here without finding much at all in the negative. I certainly don't need to be there in person just to say that I was. Hell, I was never one of those who ever wanted to fly to the moon anyway. But that is what I saw. A beautiful bunch of very green grass in a pile of moon rock. Would anyone mind telling me how in the hell you could ever enjoy putting those greens, let alone find a good lie in a fairway? Lets just say it was a real choice day and you hit all the greens in regulation, then what? Every one of those greens is a 3 putt, even from inside 6 ft.

I would guess that the fairway areas have no more than a meter of fill. The tee areas, maybe 2 meters, green areas, maybe 2 1/2 to 3. Just enough to cover the jagged rocks I suppose. How do you mow something like that? How do you drain it? Building greens like that, you need to cut with a push mower just to cut evenly but I see tri-plex tracks. And I see tri-plex tracks running down the fairways. I guess so, there is no way you could get a tractor with a large gang mower out on those fairways.  And my God man! You could not have possibly maintained + or - 12 inches of mix on those greens even if you did it all by hand. I see serious problems with the greens in five years, maybe less.

If you are going to build a golf course in a pile of rocks, you must keep it gentle, smooth and framed. At Black Mesa even a good straight shot will bounce wrong off the mounds and you're doomed in the rocks. No relief, no recovery and for damn sure, no reward.

Two things for certain; I'll not ever play Black Mesa even if airfare was included. And I never want to know who the shaper was or what he was being fed.

In closing; I feel that Architects and their designs should never be a matter of competition. Bake your own bread.
Be inspired all you want for we all live by example but see what YOU see and do what YOU see.

Michael Kelly

[James Edwards]

Michael,

So are you trying to say you didn't like it...??  
Just wondering...

James

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:  Thanks for letting everyone in on the shaper point of view ... and for helping to explain why I like to use my own guys to shape my work!

I haven't seen Black Mesa, either, but I think it looks better than you do.

I was particularly bothered by your assertion that it's impossible to build undulating greens with the correct amount of mix.  We do it all the time, and we haven't had to tear one out yet.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

It is nearly impossible to maintain the 12" mix layer on undulating greens........with a pint of vodka in ya.

[A_Clay_Man]

I'm still confused if the author actually visited the course or just virtually.

As for the greens being too tough to putt, that is ludicrous.

On my virgin trek(36) my cart pardner and I had 9 (thats nine) birdies. On the gca official outing I once again had an inordinate amount (comensurate with my ability) of birdies (4). One of the local high school coaches golfed there and shot a 76 and he's maybe an 8 index. He even confirmed that he played the course well within himself and kept his ball out of trouble, as the option filled canvas allows.

I wonder if in 5 years we can get a re-tractment form Mr. Kellly?

[George Pazin]

I know zilch about building golf courses, but I do know that those greens were very puttable - even fun to putt.

[Brad Swanson]

"Happy Hour" #1???

Yes posting after getting loaded can lead to some interesting results.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[RJ_Daley]

Ah yes, this is what I meant on the other thread welcoming the newest Mr Kelly and asking him to pull no punches in his commentary of what he observes on this site from an old experienced shaper.  It gets particularly good if the opinions are rendered at "happy hour" after a diesel fume sucking day!  It seems like this Kelly (the operator) and the Archie Kelly have a fine Irish wit about them and Tom Doak has taken up the challenge as well.  I hope they all continue to bang heads for our benefit, because these sort of discussions and the contrast of perspectives from the constrcution VS design professionals is where the most understanding of the subject can be gleaned by us lurkers and followers and hobbiests of golf course design.

I'm sure these big boys of the profession are men enough not to get their noses out of joint at the frank talk.  So keep drinkin and talkin men! We're all ears

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

Just a quick question -- have you actually played the course or are you simply lobbing a grenade from the corner pub?

[Lou_Duran]

Dick-

Such discourse and debate between the pros would be  entertaining and probably far more educational than some tit-for-tats we get into here among ourselves.  

Having met quite a few architects and superintendents, I have noticed that like many of us, some are afflicted with skin that is rather thin.  A couple of years ago after hitting a good but sligthly long shot on a 210+ yard par three leaving me an impossible approach putt, I asked in a rather nice way of my good friend and playing partner, the architect,  "what in the hell possessed you to tier the back lobe of this green"?  His response was something to the effect that if I had the requisite skills to hit the shot the hole called for (a 3 to 5 iron over a ravine to a perched 100 s.f. target) I would see the genius in the design.  To this day, I only need to question the positioning of a bunker, or the angle of a tee or a green to get a rise out of him.

I have had similar experiences with a few superintendents.  Ask them why the turf is so soggy or why they cups are being set on steep inclines and you clearly see what they think of us lay people.  The medical industry is the only other one besides golf where I get the feeling that the practioners seem to believe that their customers are a bunch of nit-wits.

Of course, none of the pros who partake on this website are like these.  So, I too look forward for more inside-the-industry dialogue.

BTW, I would like to see a survey of Black Mesa's customers.  It would not surprise me to see the difficulty of the greens, steep lies, and harsh surrounds prominently mentioned.  As I saw it, is not a course for the recreational golfer.  

[Brad Swanson]

I'm sure these big boys of the profession are men enough not to get their noses out of joint at the frank talk.  So keep drinkin and talkin men! We're all ears

Dick,
   I'm wondering where the line is drawn between frank talk and simply being rude?

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Brian Phillips]

Micheal,

Good to hear your frnak opinions..

Since when did anyone decide that a golfer should get a good lie in a fairway?  If those fairways are as wide as they look (and George Pazin has played it it so they must be ) then surely that is enough width.

As for the greens...the more undulations the better.  I don't know how they are built but if they are built to the USGA principles (notice I did not say specification) then they shouldn't have problems with drying out at all. It is a misconception that undulated USGA greens will dry out.

Good to have you on board.  I am going to get in contact as I lived in Kota Kinabalu for five years in a little town called Tanjang Aru and was wondering what you thought of Sabah.

Brian

[A_Clay_Man]

Lou- I wonder why you put so much emphasis on what the customer thinks? If this site proves anything it's the customer comes in all shape sizes and preferences (both informed and not). Don't you think that if BM knows it is bucking the trend of market driven fields of play, it should hold it's course and NOT standardize for the acceptance of this elusive(fickle) customer you mentioned here and aslo at TT?
I mean to further the discussion and have no "tenor" to my questions.
Bolder is better when pushing envelopes, no?

[Shaper]

So far I have gotten only a few of the answers I was looking for. I do know now how some of you feel about shapers. I think I always did. They never have a name. Like I said in a previous post;.... some shapers carry a bottle of some sort under the seat....some carry a little bag....some are driving blind (Black Mesa) hoping to get lucky (Grand Cypress) and continue on to a new project. I know...I know...I've seen those guys too. But some Shapers live and breath golf with a true and honest dedication to perfection in every minute of their day. AND I have seen some shapers literally make the career of an Architect.

OK lets get on with it. In my post of Black Mesa I was strictly speaking of only Black Mesa. I'll get around the globe before I'm finished.

Mr. Tom Doaks, If you haven't seen Black Mesa how can you imagine it looks better than anyone or anything? And I NEVER said that it's impossible to build undulating greens. You do it all the time...I do it all the time...many do it all the time. But I know (after seeing your fine work) that you would never let yourself build greens that look anything like the greens at Black Mesa.

Oh yeah!!! Mr. Kelly Blake Moran,  I like the way you say "nearly impossible"....."with a pint of vodka in ya". I do believe that you were involved with the design and supervision of the work done at Buenes Aires Country Club. Am I correct??? That course has had nothing but wonderful reviews....they even held the World Cup there. Do YOU have any idea what the shaper there was loaded on?

Mr. Clay_Man, What are you, some kind of trick artist?
You will never get a re-tractment out of me. Those greens are headed for nowhere.

Mr. George Pazin, I don't see how putting those greens could be fun....unless maybe the green fees were waived. Nahhh.., I still don't.

Mr. Brad Swanson, Ahhhh...so you know what it's like. pop a top, pop a top.

Mr. Matt Ward, No, I have not played Black Mesa (do you need glasses?). No not a grenade. It's more like a claymore mine....more direct.

Mr. Lou Duran, You hit part of the nail on the head. Let me help you drive it home. I could not count the many times I have had an architect say to me; "f*** the golfer", "bury them in that bunker", "slope that green at 9% down toward the lake edge", "f*** women...they don't belong out here anyway". and on and on. However, those statements were not made by the majority of the people that I know. They were made by some very big names, one in fact, a living legend. That's why I remember it so well.

Black Mesa is not only just the average players nightmare.

Michael Kelly

[Lou_Duran]

Adam-

I was taught that the customer is always right, and that if the product sells itself you have the best of all worlds.  I am assuming that Black Mesa is there to make money, not to make an architectural statement.  Ask the Indian owners what they care about, and I suspect that being bold and pushing the envelope in not quite what they had in mind.
Perhaps I am totally wet here, and the target market will reward Baxter's and Pat's vision through repeated play.  I hope so.

Not being an "elitist", I have a lot of sympathy for the average golfer.  I can play and probably learn to score on courses such as Black Mesa and The Rawls Course.  I do believe that the typical player will have great trouble with both, and in particular with BM because of lost balls, dinged-up clubs (from hitting rocks), and greens that he will not be able to figure out.

I happen to part company with those who believe that an architect can satisfy the needs of all types of players on one course.  CPC would be eaten up alive by today's tour players; not many amateurs can come close to shooting their handicaps under normal conditions at BM.

I think that having multiple tees set at progressively less difficult angles (from back to front) is a good way of providing better challenges on one course to a variety of players.  The problem with BM and TRC is that the greens and surrounds are so difficult that they more than offset the advantages of shorter distances for higher handicappers.

Jeff Brauer seems to have found a nice balance with courses that appeal to a wide variety of players.  His greens are typically large with nice movement and some interior contours.  His features are often bold to the point that they look more menacing than they actually play.  His courses generally have a rather large scale, often with plenty of width and back tees which require you to strike the ball solidly to play the hole well.

TRC and BM are both outstanding courses.  In the case of TRC, the architect was asked primarily to build a course suitable for collegiate play.  I have no doubt that he accomplished that.  I am not sure what the marching orders were at BM, but if notoriety and sparking debate were on the list, that too has been attained.  Neither course was built to sell residential lots, so they'll have to make it on their own.  It will be interesting to follow their progress architecturally as well as financially in the future.
 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike-

It's too bad you weren't with us in the Land of Enchantment, you would have liked the Tequila....

Go Yanks!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lou, well put. I feel that from our super all the time.

[A_Clay_Man]

Lou- We are clearly from different perspectives. But I will challenge your statement about the pro's and CPC. They line up like little boys every January just to get a crack at her. They hit multiple shots and "have fun". What other sport do you see that? All-start games... I dont think so. You cite score or going low in competition and that will only be known in time. But to further my point, golf as a market, is the wrong focus. Gains in golf are long-term at best and a loser in the short run unless your timing is really good and nimble. So the native americans probably have a longer term look at the use and value of their property. (I don't know either) But thats what smart money would do and from what i've seen many of these niche tribes(no offense) have some very good long term plans. Besides, golf shouldn't and doesn't fit into to many succesful models that apply outside of golf but it sure does microcosim the other way, so why should'nt it here? Meaning the customer need not always be right in this instance or context because of the many different levels who will be attracted by the reasonable green fee.

[Joe Hancock]

I like this thread......there's no effing guessing what the author was trying to say, just clear cut opinion.

I hope this one does go at least 4 pages.....

No Dr. Katz needed here, just pop open another cold one and enjoy......

[RJ_Daley]

Mike K., since your bring up Strantz, have you seen Tot Hill Farms and Tobacco Road?  I played TR a few times and find his greens as wild as anyones, yet the land is sand based and no rocks and didn't need a deep layer of cover to keep the rocks from arising... But, I only saw THF from pics as you have seen BM.  My initial impression of THF based on pics only was exactly what you said of BM and the rocks.  'You have to be [schisting] me!' pun intended  

But, I've seen plenty of wild greens in the last decade, and it seems to me that scalping the ridges and dessication of the highs and disease and softness in the lows is often a challenge to the superintendent, but not unmaintainable with experience and knowledge, and budget/support to hire and train the labor to do it right.  You'll get what you pay for...

Educating the public as to what the course was intended to offer is part of it.  Web sites of new courses and hole by hole comments by the archies helps, I think.  Although, Doak recently recluctantly did a hole by hole of TTTRC as he also wanted to challenge the golfer to figure it out.

At the end of the day, it is to the golfing public's benefit and ultimate enjoyment if the archie, the operator, and the super can hash the conflicts out and all three have a can do attitude and be aware of the extreme limits of the other two sides of this golf course design, construction, and maintenance troika.

[Shaper]

R.J. In my opinion EVERY green should have a minimum of 2 pin placements, hopefully 3, at about 12 ft. and no more than a 3% grade. I have seen Tobacco Road and more by Strantz and although I did not lay a scale down on the greens, I'm sure he has it. I just can't seem to find it at BM.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I just can't seem to find it at BM.

It might have something to do with where you're looking....

[George Pazin]

Mr. George Pazin, I don't see how putting those greens could be fun....unless maybe the green fees were waived. Nahhh.., I still don't.

I don't know how to respond to this. Why wouldn't you believe me? I paid for my rounds - I enjoyed putting those greens quite a bit. The fairway surrounds were indeed too tough for this high handicapper, but I don't hold that against the course - I take that as a sign that I need to spend more time on the range before I go play it again. If the greens were not fun, I would have hated the course. As it was, I had fun. I guess you think I'm lying for some reason, but I'm not, regardless of what you think.

Brian -

I played the course, but not always the fairways.

[Bill_McBride]

Michael me boy, one question:  have you been to Black Mesa in person?

[Brad Swanson]

Michael,
   I don't care if you've been a shaper or not your entire life, making conclusions about the playability of a course from a few pictures is pretty weak.  I've played BM and I can assure you.

1.  I enjoyed the greens alot.  Most in the group did (including low and high handicappers), some did not, but at least they experienced them firsthand before drawing their conclusions.

2.  I did not receive any unfair bounces from the fairway undulations as you suggested would happen.  As a matter of fact, there are very few things I didn't like about the course (and those things I would have done differently have already been discussed here).

3.  You can't find 2 pins for each green with less than 3% grade for 12 feet.  Hmm you must be freeking amazing at looking at photos and turning one 2d photo of a green into a scaled 3d map/topo of that green because I'm guessing you haven't had access to the detailed topos.  Just a guess.

I'm not defending BM in particular here, I just think drawing the conclusion that a course is crap from a few photos is crazy (and relatively unprofessional from someone who is supposed to be a lifer in the biz ).  We've discussed this issue as naseum before, and the bottom line is I'll trust a casual GCAers opinion of a course they've played over a someone in the biz who draws his conclusion from photos anytime.  

Have we discussed/seen any of your work here?? Reminds me of a saying about stones and glass houses.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson