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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2009, 10:24:19 PM »
It is a great hole but did Tillinghast ever acknowledge that he built a Redan at Somerset Hills? Or is that just what we like to call it today?

My pure guess is that Tilly would say that he just built a hole that was there naturally, and the "redan-like" features are a coincidence.


Bill,

If you view the green site, especially from behind the hole, I'm not so sure that you'd classify it as a hole that was there naturally, and just discovered by the architect.

Ian Andrew

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2009, 11:02:20 PM »
Phil,

I've enjoyed the read - and am looking forward to the next installments.

I know he made changes to Orchard Park and was always curious on whether he went to the Park CC.


The Stafford Country Club followed. Here he "Inspected the entire course, which had been laid out by the late Walter Travis. The course fair reeked with unnecessary sand traps and formal mounds. They readily agreed with my advice to do away with many of these, appreciating the fact that they penalized only the poor shots of mediocre players. I am sticking steadfastly to the principle of "More enjoyable golf for more players." I also advise slight reconstructions of several greens, which do not hold lofted shots..."

The golf course in the older photos was far more interesting than what they ended up with once all the mounds were removed.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2009, 11:03:49 PM »
Why do you say that Pat?

I have only played it once, and I can see that the green may have been pushed up a little for the construction process, but I think the green site was a naturally occuring rise.

Do you think that the entire rise was man-made?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2009, 05:33:53 AM »
Ian,

This will answer your question as I believe the Park CC you refer to was known at that time as the Wikllianmsville course.

August 26, 1935:

Another good long day for Tilly, "Was spent on the two courses of The Park Country Club, first inspecting the entire course at Orchard Park and afterward on the Williamsville course...

"At Orchard Park I gave them a plan for a rearranged fifth hole, one of 565 yards; a reconstructed first green; the elimination of numerous 'Duffer's Headache' bunkers... and inspected new land that they anticipate using in the future, and advising them about it...

"Later at the Williamsville course I accompanied Jack Gordon [to see about making] room for a practice teeing area on the right of the first hole and suggested a new arrangement of the fairway pits and indicated proper tree planting for protection. Advised him concerning side pits for the first and second green; bunkering at the right of the short thirteenth and the sloping of the creek banks at this hole where erosion threatens to undermine and carry away a part of the fairway...

That evening, Tilly addressed, "a particularly fine gathering of professionals, greenkeepers and committeemen, many of whom came from a distance. After my address I was successful in opening a general discussion of various points and one of those who asked me the most questions was Mr. Harries, who has built many courses in this district, courses planned by Travis, Allison and Donald Ross. He came to me afterward and expressed his satisfaction and pleasure. Altogether it was the best meeting we have had and I am encouraged and satisfied...

Tilly closed his report with this "p.s." - The Dunlop Company, who have a nine hole course for their employees sent their greenkeeper, Gus Wyrobek, to see me for advise on several soil problems, which he described. They have no 'pro but I considered it entirely regular to give him information in view of Craig Wood's connection with the company."

Total courses visited: 28


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2009, 06:15:56 AM »
Ian
I get confused by all the name changes of clubs in Buffalo, but I take it the Park CC Tilly is referring to is CH Alison's design? Is there an talk of restoring Stafford?

Bill
It is curious what Tilly wrote about CBM after he was dead. I don't recall he him criticizing him while he was still a live. Early in his career Tilly appears to have been influenced by CBM more than he would admit later is career. His early courses had very interesting style which reflected some CBM attributes, like the use of the redan and the Sahara bunker. During those years (mid- to late-teens) Tilly was collaborating with George Low and Peter Lees. Peter Lees was the former greenkeeper at Royal Mid Surrey, and built that famous course with JH Taylor. He was brought to the US by CBM to help with Lido.

Some of those early courses were Somerset Hills, Quaker Ridge, Shackamaxon, Hermitage and I believe Baltusrol. Those courses had a more constructed style, built up greens and mounding, than Tilly's later designs. I'm not sure if I don't prefer Tilly's early style to his later styles.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 06:26:26 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #80 on: August 27, 2009, 07:43:54 PM »
Phil:

Please continue with Tilly's PGA Tour. Apparently that the temporary diversion to it has ended. It seems the "Curious Tilly Transformation" thread evolved into pretty much humor which seems to be appropriate!  ;)

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #81 on: August 27, 2009, 08:13:39 PM »
I agree with Tom, please continue the tour!

One thing I am noticing is that a lot of the advice involved how to better grow grass. That makes perfect sense, but we propbably overlook that now. Getting good grass to play on was probably FAR more important to clubs back then rather than bunker placement, etc. that we might focus on now.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #82 on: August 27, 2009, 10:01:44 PM »
August 26, 1935:

Every day brings its own share of surprises as wise person, my mother, once told me. And so this day did for Tilly.

"Evidently rain prevented the club at Dunkirk from meeting their engagement with me...
(the first case of the kind that has turned up since I left) however the day has been one of the most satisfactory of all, for our service reached out to a struggling club that was sadly in need of guidance and unable to secure it had it been necessary to pay for it. One of the most urgent requests for service came to me from PGA member Howard Swanson of the Tri-County Country Club at Silver Creek... about 40 miles out from Buffalo..."

There are those who have expressed opinions as to what they believed the purpose of the PGA Tour was, but that single paragraph reveals it all. A club needs help & has nowhere to turn. Their PGA pro is their only answer and he can actually turn to his Association to get it, and at no cost! Is Tilly's visit going to take work away from other architects? Not at all as the club hadn't money to hire anyone anyway...

For us today, especially if one drives like those in Georgia where I live, a 40 mile drive only takes about 23 minutes including the stop at the Quik-Trip for the 6-pack of beer and corn dog needed to quench the thirst and hunger. Back then, along unknown small roads it took MUCH longer!

"There I found a nine holes course that is supported by seventy-five members, with dues at $22 each per annum. With additional guest privileges the income of the club is something in excess of $3,000 each year from which sum is paid the professional's salary and two groundkeepers. All work hard to keep the course decent and succeed surprisingly well, although obviously the greens are far from right because of lack of funds. Four of the nine holes are quite blind and the entire lay-out exceedingly home-made...

Now I don't know about you, but after reading that I want to jump in my car with my clubs and go p-lay it and enjoy what must be basic golf from the beginnings!

"I determined at once that it would be cheaper to seed new greens than to rehabilitate the old ones, which are a mass of chickweed and clover. I completely rearranged the plan of the course, keeping most of the fairway but selecting new green sites in natural locations, which will entirely eliminate blindness and which may be developed gradually at comparatively small cost. In other words, all work will be to a definite program and altogether permanent in character, although it may take five years or more to complete it. The complete plan presented something of a problem and it took some time to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion but eventually everything worked out well and a complete arrangement of new holes was definitely fixed. I regard this work for Swanson's club as peculiarly significant of the value of the PGA Service..."

After reading that it makes one wonder whatever happened to the course. Did they do as Tilly suggested? Is it still in existence? Well I can answer one of those questions as it now is an 18-hole course that measures 5,510 yards in length. If you visit the website at www.tricountycountryclub.com and take a tour of the course, you'll see some interesting looking holes and land that certainly would have lent itself to many a "blind" shot if most of us designed it for our community.

It is obvious that they take great pride in it, as they should. By the way, the green fees are $27 for a weekend round...

Total courses visited: 29


Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2018, 10:15:21 AM »
August 17, 1935:

"Although working over the courses throughout the past three days has been blazing hot, never the less I have managed to cover a lot of ground. This morning I left Schenectady and went to Amsterdam [Municipal Golf Course], particularly to contact John H. Lord, pro at that place and formerly president of the district association. When McBride had asked him if he wanted the PGA service he replied that, 'It would be a waste of Mr. Tillinghast's time as his club had no money to spend.'



I was looking into the origins of Robert Trent Jones' Amsterdam Municipal GC, and stumbled on this old thread.  It struck me as curious that Tillinghast would be making suggestions on a course that wouldn't even open until 1938. 


Reading from Tillie's letter above, it is evident that he was visiting a golf club, not a municipal course.  John Lord was the pro at the Antlers CC in Amsterdam in the late 1920's and I suspect he was still there when Tillie visited.


Seems like it makes a whole lot more sense that Tillie made suggestions on the Antlers CC course in Amsterdam, and not the Amsterdam Municipal Course.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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