[Kalen Braley]

But heaven forbid we trust them enough to take a free drop from an obvious divot, that is just over the line! 

The absurdity....

Oh please.

You can't come up with a definition for when a divot hole ceases to be a divot hole. Not one that everyone could apply pretty evenly.

It has nothing to do with hypocrisy. Plus, a divot hole is not an abnormal ground condition - it's expected. It's a golf course - there are divot holes on the course.

Like someone else said, take the few minutes and learn to play from them. It's not like you're in more than about two or three per year.

Erik,

I can say all those things about ball marks too, but you're allowed to repair them.

I can also say why don't you just take a few minutes and learn to do deal with ball marks.

P.S.  I think its just terrific everyone assumes I don't know how to play from a divot.  That's not the point at all...its about consistency in the rules...

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I can say all those things about ball marks too, but you're allowed to repair them.

You cannot. Reasonable people are able to determine when a ball mark is a ball mark, AND you can only repair ball marks on the putting green, where the expectation that you'll have a good lie and line are assumed. The putting green, after all, is "specially prepared for putting," and putting is rolling your ball along the ground. No such expectation exists elsewhere - that you have a good lie or line.That's why you can now repair all kinds of damage on the putting green. It's special. It's not in the general area.

P.S.  I think its just terrific everyone assumes I don't know how to play from a divot.  That's not the point at all...its about consistency in the rules...

They're already very consistent. The putting green is specially prepared for rolling your ball. You don't get to tee your ball up anywhere else, but you're allowed to within the teeing area.

[Kalen Braley]

Erik,

Hilarious.."reasonable people"...who all of a sudden become unreasonable when they step foot on the fairways...

Still waiting for someone to point out a "reasonable" reason why good judgement can be used on the putting green but not in the fairway.

[Kyle Harris]

Erik,

Hilarious.."reasonable people"...who all of a sudden become unreasonable when they step foot on the fairways...

Still waiting for someone to point out a "reasonable" reason why good judgement can be used on the putting green but not in the fairway.

Because, as has been pointed out several times, the putting green is a specially prepared area as is defined as such within the rules. "Fairway" is not defined by the rules, but instead is consider "through the green" which is meant to be played in a certain manner. 


You can die on this mole ant divot hill or listen. You might do well to read the Tufts book on why the rules are the way they are.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Still waiting for someone to point out a "reasonable" reason why good judgement can be used on the putting green but not in the fairway.

It's been pointed out a few times now.

And Kyle's answer is good, too.

[SL_Solow]

Kyle,  Through the green is no longer part of the terminology as of January 1. General area is the new term.  Your point remains valid

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,  Through the green is no longer part of the terminology as of January 1. General area is the new term.  Your point remains valid

I'll wait until January 1, then. 

[Dave Doxey]

...as we head toward a future where TopGolf is golf....

[John Kavanaugh]

They had to go and make it more complicated. It almost makes me happy that my body is deteriorating at a rate consistent with the game. We should both be done at just about the same time.

[Daryl David]

It almost makes me happy that my body is deteriorating at a rate consistent with the game. We should both be done at just about the same time.

Candidate for best quote this year.

[Kalen Braley]

Kyle,

Sorry my friend but wrong again.  The fairway does have some special designations, like for example the embedded ball relief rule.  Its specifically called out as a closely mown area, along with the greens, that doesn't apply to the rough.

So much for that theory...still waiting...

[John Kavanaugh]

Trust comes with proximity. You simply can not compare giving yourself a ruling, such as divot or not, with someone standing next to you or the nearest opponent 50 yds away. In this the green is much different than the expanse of the course. You are simply rarely alone on a green.

[Kalen Braley]

Trust comes with proximity. You simply can not compare giving yourself a ruling, such as divot or not, with someone standing next to you or the nearest opponent 50 yds away. In this the green is much different than the expanse of the course. You are simply rarely alone on a green.

Yet you still grant your playing partner that same trust that they won't bump the ball at address to gain a "preferred lie"

Still waiting...

[John Kavanaugh]

Yea and I trust them to count how many times they hit the ball in the woods. Getting a great ruling is not cheating, bumping the ball is.

[Kalen Braley]

Yea and I trust them to count how many times they hit the ball in the woods. Getting a great ruling is not cheating, bumping the ball is.

Perhaps...but not really. Look at how Tiger was recently skewered for "cheating" despite getting a favorable ruling.

[John Kavanaugh]

The truth of the matter is that I play on a course with 20yr old tightly mown bent grass fairways. I doubt that there is a bad lie that couldn't be argued was the result of an old divot. Why would any serious golfer want to put themselves through this argument?


I don't recall being in two or three divots all year. Start giving me drops and that is going increase 5 fold. You know who is going to pay for that...the superintendent. You know what he is going to do...ask for more money. This in turn will lead to more turf research, more crazy expensive unplayable grasses. Or just play lift clean and place every damn day to save the trouble.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why I can only speak for myself, I hate to admit I often carefully repair a divot out of fear that I may end up there in the future. I can only imagine how the quality of my work may suffer if you remove that motivation. But that's just me.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Sorry my friend but wrong again.  The fairway does have some special designations, like for example the embedded ball relief rule.  Its specifically called out as a closely mown area, along with the greens, that doesn't apply to the rough.

So much for that theory...still waiting...

Embedded Ball is under "abnormal ground conditions." A divot is not considered abnormal.

Four inches is closely-mown by my definition of closely mown, as it is significantly under the natural height of the turf if left uncut, so that includes most uniformly maintained areas of so-called rough.

If it is too wet to mow the fairways for a week, do they cease to be fairways by this rule?

Is it not the case that the committee make grant this drop through the green as well? Therefore it can be argued that the committee already has the ability to mark each and every divot as GUR if they so choose.

[JESII]

In fact, I've never played a tournament round in which the embedded ball rule was limited to the fairway...although the rule does mark a distinction between closely mown and through the green.

[Kalen Braley]

Kyle,

I think those are good points.  While temporary conditions do exist, I've certainly never played a course with fairways anywhere near 4 inches...most munis don't even have 4 inch rough. But maybe courses in Seattle deal with this when they can't get the mowers out.

As for the embedded ball rule it does explicitly state fairway length or less which I'm guessing 99.9% of the time is significantly shorter than 4 inches..

John,

I appreciate the insights, but by your same logic, you could also then assume any blemish on the green is an old ball mark.  Once again, where is the consistency??

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


I play 95% of my golf competitively and it's often asked if a blemish on the green can be repaired. Yes or no and done. It's that simple. How do you not understand the proximity argument when it comes to divots? Who in the world wants to walk across the fairway for a ruling every other hole? Or worse, what group trailing wants to watch?


Honestly, how do you not understand trust and proximity. Do you have employees, a wife or children?

[John Kavanaugh]

Everyone in life cheats a bit here and there but the ones worth keeping don't do right under your nose. This is why you go to work, spend time with your wife and pray for your children. Even the USGA recognized this fact when they stopped allowing singles to post scores.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

I thought we covered this concept.

Do you make sure your partners ball is on the inside of the OB stakes on that wayward drive?
Or make sure they don't ground the club in the fairway bunker 50 yards away?
Or that their ball is actually embedded in the fairway?
Or that its actually on the cart path or the sprinkler head or drain before taking that free drop?
Or actually inside the hole of the burrowing animal?
etc, etc.

Proximity and trust is legacy, been there since the dawn of the game!

P.S.  I hadn't thought about it that way in relation to my wife and kids, I will certainly give that a good think over! 

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


I do check all those things but it is simple, OB is marked, a drain is a drain, a bunker is a bunker, a cart path a cart path, an embedded ball is embedded. But a divot is not always a divot.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Sorry my friend but wrong again.  The fairway does have some special designations, like for example the embedded ball relief rule.  Its specifically called out as a closely mown area, along with the greens, that doesn't apply to the rough.

There's no definition for "fairway" in the Rules. Only a "closely mown area." That could apply to some other tee box, too, or the fringe. And that rule flip flopped in 2019, as the USGA has basically always extended the embedded ball rule through the green. I doubt you've played a tournament in the U.S. in the last decade or two where the Local Rule was not in effect.

The simple facts remain against you on this one Kalen. A divot hole is not GUR, nor is it an "abnormal ground condition." That you won't accept that the putting green is a different area specifically designed for rolling or putting the ball does not make it any less true.

But a divot is not always a divot.

Yep.

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