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JMorgan

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Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« on: February 19, 2007, 08:05:13 AM »
What's the story with Knickerbocker CC in Tenafly, NJ?  

How does it compare with its neighbors?  

If you had a choice between Hackensack (Banks), Ridgewood (Tillinghast), North Jersey (Travis), White Beeches (Travis), and Knickerbocker (Ross), which one would you pick and why?

JMorgan

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Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2007, 11:39:36 AM »
Bumpety bump bump.

Anyone?  

If not, I'll be forced to post pictures of my newborn son.
 ;D
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 07:20:21 AM by James Morgan »

David Stamm

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Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2007, 11:45:34 AM »
James, I haven't played any of them, but a friend of mine played Knickerbocker and he really like it.

FWIW, if given the choice, I would play Ridgewood.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

AndrewB

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Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2007, 11:51:48 AM »
If you had a choice between Hackensack (Banks), Ridgewood (Tillinghast), North Jersey (Travis), White Beeches (Travis), and Knickerbocker (Ross), which one would you pick and why?

Those are all good courses, but having grown up playing Ridgewood, I'm biased, so it's easy to choose which one to play for me.  (That is the type of "choice" you were referring to, yes?)

It has been years since I played Knickerbocker and I've only played it a few times, but I thought it was quite good when I did.  Hopefully others can offer some more detailed feedback.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

JMorgan

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Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2007, 12:09:52 PM »
Thanks Andrew and Dave.

I ask the questions for two reasons:

1.  I know nothing about Knickerbocker and have not seen it mentioned here before.

2.  It's interesting to find five courses by four distinguished gca's in such close proximity, so I thought this comparison could lead to some interesting discussions.

JNagle

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Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2007, 12:21:59 PM »
Make that six courses with five from distiguished Archie's.  Alpine is only ten minutes away.  Alpine is an underrated Tillie gem.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

JMorgan

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Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2007, 12:44:03 PM »
Make that six courses with five from distiguished Archie's.  Alpine is only ten minutes away.  Alpine is an underrated Tillie gem.

JNagle, indeed.  I think Kyle Harris discussed it here not too long ago.  

AndrewB

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Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2007, 01:37:12 PM »
Knickerbocker Country Club, "East side, West side", from Golf Clubs of the MGA.  Founded: 1914; Architcts: Donald Ross, Herbert Strong, Geoffrey Cornish; Course Opened: 1915; Tees: Forward par 74, 5851 yards, 74.2/129; Middle par 72, 6410 yards, 71.1/126; Back par 72, 6628 yards, 72.1/128.

Quote
Knickerbocker was incorporated on December 1, 1914, at the home of one Malcolm Mackay on Knickerbocker Road in Tenafly, for the purpose of enjoying golf, tennis, and other sports -- on a site slightly more than 10 miles from midtown Manhattan.

The course progressed from the east side of Knickerbocker Road to the west.  The first nine holes, on land leased from Mackay for $1 a year, were built "according to a plan" by Donald Ross.  They opened July 4, 1915, at which time the Club was negotiating for additional land to the west.  Nine new holes, also Ross "designs", were ready by that December, some built on wetlands, others cut through forest.  The course featured "long curving holes, deep pits, and sugarloaf mounds" in the Ross style.  A third nine was added for the 1925 season, the work of Herbert Strong.  A few of the west holes were altered or abandoned at this time; only six holes from that nine remain relatively intact today.

Three years later, the Club spent $69,000 to purchase a house west of the road, intending to make it the new clubhouse.  But the Depression ended any sych plan; in fact, the house had to be sold at a significant loss.  Financial troubles also led to the abandonment of the original nine east of the road in 1928.  The remaining 18 holes were used almost as is until 1973, when Geoffrey Cornish repositioned and remodeled six greens, bringing the course to its present configuration.  The clubhouse underwent a complete renovation and expansion, completed in 1996.  Knickerbocker has been described as deceptively difficult, the result of narrow fairways, sharp angles, and small greens.  The best-kown hole is the 12th, which plays from an elevated tee into a wide fairway sliced across by a brook at the end of the drive zone.  A large pond hugs the left side of the angled green.

Knickerbocker has had only five professionals in more than 80 years.  First was a Scot named Willie Collins (1915-'25).  Jack Hobens (1926-'41) won the 1908 Met Open at Baltusrol, played in several U.S. Opens while professional at Englewood before coming to Knickerbocker, and was among the founders of the national PGA.  He was followed by Willie Walker (1942-'52), brother of Cyril Walker, the Englewood pro who won the 1924 U.S. Open.

Otto Greiner served Knickerbocker for 32 years (1953-'84).  During his tenure he won the 1954 Met Open, 1956 New Jersey PGA, and the inaugral Dodge Open in 1964, and played in 10 U.S. Opens.  A member of the New Jeresey PGA Hall of Fame, Greiner was named NJPGA Professional of the Year in 1973.  The man Sam Snead once balled "the boldest putter I've ever seen" established the course record 64 the first time he played the course -- while interviewing for the head professional position!

Ed Whitman, in the shop since 1985, has been a leading force in New Jersey professional ranks for the past decade, twice winner of the State Open, four-time NJPGA Stroke-Play champion, and holder of several other regional titles.  Whitman has been acclaimed NJPGA Player of the Year four times.

Prominent among current members is Dennis Slezak, 1991 Met Amateur cahmpion.

The inagural New Jersey Open was staged over Knickerbocker's "recently remodeled" course in May of 1921, when Peter O'Hara of Shackamaxon carded 148 for two rounds, three strokes better than amateur Frank Dyer.  Wes Ellis won the 1963 NJPGA Championship, his complete perforamance taking place west of Knickerbocker Road.  Only the clubhouse now lies to the east.

There's a driving range and short game practice area on the east side too.  As one can see, the Club has a long history of head professionals that are accomplished players.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Dean Paolucci

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Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2007, 02:47:30 PM »
What's the story with Knickerbocker CC in Tenafly, NJ?  

How does it compare with its neighbors?  

If you had a choice between Hackensack (Banks), Ridgewood (Tillinghast), North Jersey (Travis), White Beeches (Travis), and Knickerbocker (Ross), which one would you pick and why?

I have played them all including Alpine.  Not being politically correct at all, they all have pluses and minuses.  Ridgewood has the cache (name, tournaments, bloodlines, 27 holes, etc.) as well as the Tillie pedigree.  Hackensack is alot of fun and has good variety as well as some classic holes (Redan) and great Banks bunkering.  Knickerbocker has great risk / reward capabilities and is always in spectacular condition.  The charm of North Jersey and White Beeches is probably the terrain.  Some holes can be quirky while others are flat out impossible.  Alpine is the most confusing.  Although it has good holes the disconnected Clubhouse and the severity of some holes (10 for example) makes the experience a little odd.

For my money, I would say toss up.  Ridgewood (27 holes) and Hackensack (fun).
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

JMorgan

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Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2007, 10:58:10 PM »
Andrew, Dean, thanks.  Good stuff.

Matt_Ward

Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2007, 11:10:34 AM »
James:

In my mind - you have Ridgewood, Alpine and Hackensack and then the likes of Knickerbocker in Bergen County.

The course is well worth a play but often flies considerably lower on the radar screen.

Frankly, the same thing applies to Alpine as well.

P.S. The terrain and green contours at Alpine are vastly underappreciated by a good number of people. I like the 10th hole -- save for the fact that the green was not designed to handle today's green speeds. They can either lower the back of the green (which would not be such a hot idea) or simply pay heed to the overall green speeds to avoid putt-putt scenarios.

JMorgan

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Re:Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2007, 07:15:48 PM »
What about the Travis designs, NJersey and White Beeches?  Are these courses case studies of his weaknesses?   Did he excel at the green -- as an extension of his keen putting ability -- developing interest here to the detriment of other design features of his courses?  
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 07:17:56 PM by James Morgan »

Barry Stern

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Re: Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2010, 08:43:19 PM »
Old post, but I have heard that Knickerbocker recently underwent a significant renovation and was wondering if any GCA'ers have played there recently and can comment.  - bls

Matt_Ward

Re: Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2010, 08:53:52 PM »
Barry:

I was there about two weeks ago -- the course is in fine shape -- save for the drainage issues they routinely have on the front side near the par-3 4th and through the 5th and 7th holes when they get heavy rain.

You'll have to elaborate on what it is they have done -- I don't see anything of a major sort done to the course.

mark chalfant

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Re: Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2010, 08:59:29 PM »
Barry,

Welcome to GCA.  The restoration is excellent and worth playing.  There is some very nice movemnet in the terrain. The current course is half Ross and half by Herbert Strong. The super continues to recapture lost green area. The vistas are great due to some of the best tree managemnet Ive ever seen. Nice interior contours on several greens.  I believe Jim Nagle or Ron Forse did the splendid  Master  plan

Matt_Ward

Re: Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2010, 09:27:10 PM »
Mark:

Do you have any specifics you can post ?

Still a few trees that can be pulled down -- and the drainage on the holes previously mentioned can be a bit moist.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2018, 10:24:52 AM »
A little followup on Ross and Strong at Knickerbocker.

Ross for the original 18 with the first 9 opening in 1915 and the second 9 a year later.  Strong following up F. R. Walker for the third 9 holes.  It is my understanding that those new 9 holes were combined with the second 9 to make up the championship course.

Dec. 12, 1934 The Record -



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Knickerbocker Country Club and environs
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2018, 08:20:55 PM »
I'm still waiting for JMorgan's baby photos...
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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