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jeffwarne

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Is this OT?
« on: December 02, 2018, 11:06:07 AM »
Watching the best 18 players in the world at The Hero chunk shots and miss greens from 7 yards out due to super tight turf.
The players all blame grain

I grew up on bermuda and never remember doing or seeing this presumably because even though the grass was equally grainy (probably moreso given agronomy "advancements") but the difference is the turf wasn't cut so short.
I have no idea how the members play those shots there.


Is this what golf architure has come down to?
Fail to regulate equipment properly and allow 350 yard drives to "strategic" width....
then "defend" par by having them chunk from 30 feet away?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2018, 11:39:02 AM »

Is this what golf architure has come down to?
Fail to regulate equipment properly and allow 350 yard drives to "strategic" width....
then "defend" par by having them chunk from 30 feet away?


You've answered your own question: it is what it's come to for this particular event at this venue this week.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2018, 11:42:31 AM »
The alternative is the skulled line-drive from 30 yards.


Duck!!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Steve Wilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2018, 11:52:58 AM »
Yes.
Maybe.
No.
Never.
Almost never.
Hardly ever.


Did you know this was International Equivocation Day?  At least I think it is.

Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2018, 12:02:37 PM »

Is this what golf architure has come down to?
Fail to regulate equipment properly and allow 350 yard drives to "strategic" width....
then "defend" par by having them chunk from 30 feet away?


You've answered your own question: it is what it's come to for this particular event at this venue this week.


+1
well if that's the case I'm less worried
I am amazed the don't hit any low hooking chips to hit in front of and tumble up the slopes----I do see them trying to hit low wedges that slam INTO the slopes and are often rejected.


I guess they are so good at pitching it never occurs to them that missing the green could happen
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

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Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2018, 08:40:33 PM »
Jeff,


It seems to me that golfers at the top levels need to factor in everything.


Wind, distance, temperature, carries, water, OB...and yes even tight lies around the greens that may result in difficult recovery.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2018, 09:30:59 PM »
 8)  Is par being defended when the winner is at -20?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2018, 02:15:09 AM »
8)  Is par being defended when the winner is at -20?


They obviously need to add more bushes. 

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2018, 08:09:45 AM »
I think there is something else going on.  Many forms of Bermuda (and Bent) these days have grain that is governed by water flow.  In the old days, the grain w Bermuda always went to the setting sun in the west...not today...is is not unidirectional.  Look at greens today and note the different colors of sections of the greens and at different angles...that is from the grain going with water flow...so downhill putts are with the grain (and especially fast) and uphill putts against it (and extra slow).  True w all Champions Bermuda greens and many other strains of grasses used for greens.


If this is also true for grasses used in fairways and the areas surrounding the green...then with any raised green if you have an uphill lie you will be chipping against the green. 


Additionally, other courses used for Tour events may be copying ANGC's practice of mowing all the surfaces near the greens in only one direction..."away" from the green.  More time consuming and therefore expensive to do so but that would exacerbate this

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 08:18:03 AM »
8)  Is par being defended when the winner is at -20?


They obviously need to add more bushes.


More Cowbells would help too.  And for the newbies out there, enjoy.....


https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/more-cowbell-with-will-ferrell-on-snl-video-saturday-night-live-nbc/3506001
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 09:18:06 AM »
8)  Is par being defended when the winner is at -20?


Here's the thing.
People judge courses where events are played by the winning scores, and often often on water strewn torture chambers a super low score is shot by a guy in full stride bombing it down the middle and hitting the greens.
I think the average player shoots a million in the Hero as he's unable to consistently stay in "the width" and loses the ball anyway in the shite. and is fu$%#^ when he misses a green


Crooked Stick and John Daly is my first memory of this (everyone else struggled with the course while the oblivious Daly manhandled it-it was still freaking really hard) and TPC Sawgrass used to be this before it became a pitch and putt for Tour pros with ungoverned equipment-but is still virtually unplayable for an 18 handicap.


But meanwhile par is "defended" and the guy not driving it great-that we don't see on TV-misses the cut with an unseemly high score, and the average guy-wanting to "play where the pros play" shoots a million and to add insult to injury has to putt every off the green shot because hitting the green from 7 yards out has become a real challenge off super tight "chipping areas" that the average guy has as much chance as hitting solid shot from as he does carrying it 250 yards.


A recent case i point-the wind didn't blow at Erin Hills and people said it was "easy"
If you think Erin Hills is easy, you haven't played it.
Just walking it is difficult.
Yet Shinny was considered hard because scores were higher in relation to par(due to stupid setup resulting in bad agronomy).


I guarantee you that Shinnecock day in and day out is far more enjoyable to play and walk than Erin Hills,......
in years that the USGA is not involved.


I got a bit off track there but I'm just really tired of watching golfers be unable to pitch or chip and their skill being negated by the REDUCTION of options due to the phantom lure of "chipping areas" with super tight greenlike turf creating more.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 09:27:54 AM »



I got a bit off track there but I'm just really tired of watching golfers be unable to pitch or chip and their skill being negated by the REDUCTION of options due to the phantom lure of "chipping areas" with super tight greenlike turf creating more.




A counter-argument:


Tightly mown grass (not too tightly  ;D ) helps high handicappers because it gives them the option of putting from off the green. And anytime you can take a SW out of a high handicapper's hands, you're doing him a favor.


As to PGAT players, if they hit SW, that's their prerogative--even if it might not be their best play.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2018, 09:54:37 AM »
Putting the ball from off the green is a skill shot. A chutt so to speak. It truly is the last bastion of taking down a superior opponent.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2018, 10:45:53 AM »
Putting the ball from off the green is a skill shot. A chutt so to speak. It truly is the last bastion of taking down a superior opponent.


100% agreed, but it would be nice if something else was a reasonable option...
One can develop skill at this shot through repetition, committment and practice, and greenlike approaches encourage this. It should be a part of EVERY player's repertoire.
but eventually it's less the skill at this shot and more the realization that there is no other choice...that has tilted the scale too far in my opinion, and taken the chip/pitch out of the game at courses with a luxury of riches or a keeping up with the Joneses mindset.


It's the choices and imagination that create the joy and challenge, not the dictation of the lie (ironically poor because it's so "perfect")
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2018, 01:26:04 PM »
I have no idea how the members play those shots there.



As has been mentioned, they play them with a putter. No decision to be made.  The better you are, the more you realize that you have options in that situation.


And THAT is the beauty of tight lies around the green, they baffle the greatest players, but not the hacker.


I think Doak calls it using short grass as a hazard.


K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2018, 01:53:48 PM »
I have no idea how the members play those shots there.



As has been mentioned, they play them with a putter. No decision to be made.  The better you are, the more you realize that you have options in that situation.


And THAT is the beauty of tight lies around the green, they baffle the greatest players, but not the hacker.


I think Doak calls it using short grass as a hazard.


K


Ken,
When Tom wrote that I agreed 100%
Greens tended to be surrounded by rough so short grass gave options and the ball ran further away from greens.
I'm not talking about UK links turf-I'm talking about big money, super short-dedicated lower height mower approaches.
Grass is clearly shorter now and generally softer underneath to keep it alive in hot/humid summer months
I had this very discussion recently with Brian Schneider recently who was remarking about how tight the turf was at a NY Nassau club he was consulting at.


I ran into a shot at a MET Open Qualifier at a course which had redone their green surrounds where the ball literally dropped down a half inch to the next cut which was easily green height(ans super soft as it was August) at 95% of courses. I had a pitch from 30 yards over a bunker that I had virtually no chance to hit the green from the middle of the fairway-putting around the bunker was considered but would've left me farther from the hole. Hey if hackers can't chip I get it, but when a pro with a pretty good short game can't even hit a 30 yard shot with plenty of green to work with I just draw the line. Who is that serving and why spend money to create and maintain that? Small wonder pros aim at bunkers now-which is exactly where I ended up (buried) for a comparatively far simpler up and down.


What a pity if we tell every hacker that his ONLY choice is putting from off the green. Denying him the chance to ever hit a good pitch is like having a forced layup on every hole. The thrill of carrying a ditch 100 yards out is big thrill if your average carry distance is 105.


My newer concern is it's not just the hackers making this choice as green surrounds are essentially just big greens and we're over valuing what is essentially lag putting while creating no options if everyone's bumbling it along the perfectly smooth short turf
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2018, 03:14:23 PM »
Jeff,

As a high capper, when I get those tight green-side lies, I often pick the 8 iron bump and run which is simple enough...a shot that seems to be lost on most of what i see on TV.

But agreed, if its a tight lie and it demands a high pitch shot over a bunker, then that is another thing. (Although a case could be made those guys are so good, they should protect from that kind of miss, even if players like me can't)

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2018, 08:11:23 PM »
Super tight fairway surfaces are still way better than Oakmont 1994 rough.  I can’t believe people are complaining about this.  Super tight lies equalize the lob wedge and encourage more bound and run shots.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2018, 12:28:35 AM »
Jeff,

As a high capper, when I get those tight green-side lies, I often pick the 8 iron bump and run which is simple enough...a shot that seems to be lost on most of what i see on TV.

But agreed, if its a tight lie and it demands a high pitch shot over a bunker, then that is another thing. (Although a case could be made those guys are so good, they should protect from that kind of miss, even if players like me can't)


agreed Kalen-love the 8 iron shot-esp with a little draw through grain
What makes you think the shot left iin your second line s a miss-nowadays that's called a seond shot.


James, No doubt it matters where you play and how tight/soft we are talking.I love links lies but the grass isn't nearly as short as what I'm talking about, on a links, it's just firm-which provides a surface to get decent turf interaction.


I would say super green height tight lies often encourage Lob wedges for great players, and leave the rest in chunk city or putting=boring.


Agreed deep rough entirely around the green was one dimensional and overused but I strongly disagree that it was a luck fest. The better player  can distinguish himself from greenside rough, especially unpredictatable non-uniform rough that requires reading the lie and selecting the proper shot and executing to get close, while giving the average guy a decent chance to hit the green.
variety and balance-the pendulum has swung too far in my opinion at many places at increased expense and decreased fun.
Just as every green should not be ringed by rough, not every elevated green should be surrounded by ALL super short fairway resulting in every shot rolling away and ending up being the same length to an uphill target

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2018, 04:36:18 AM »
To what extent is this matter about the effect on the club-ball strike rather than the effect on the first-second-etc bounce?
Atb

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2018, 05:49:02 AM »
I wonder if this is part of the reason some sandbelt courses has gone to fescue around their greens. Maybe Tom Doak can elaborate?
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2018, 06:08:55 AM »

Jeff

Not that it matters for pros very much, but short grass makes bunkers more meaningful.  I see no problem with a guy having a play off short grass over a bunker....in theory.  Now if the course has 60 greenside bunkers it may become a bit one dimensional.  But that is a balance of hazards/features issue, not a grass length issue. The issue with grass length for me really comes down to affordability.  Of course, on sandy sites, it may actually be cheaper to maintain a bunch of short grass which plays nearly as well as the greens rather than having large greens.  This is one of the reasons I like flatter links golf more than most....the interplay between greens, features and fairways can be sublime if done well. Essentially, we can have bunkers and other features within a green (without actually being part of the green..hence the reason I like the term green complex) when short grass is in play, but nobody thinks of flat links in this way....they more or less focus on the option of running up an approach when the recoveries around greens can be just as interesting.  Short grass makes it easier to have interesting features which essentially offer four options...running iron, putter, flop or running aerial shot. On poa, short grass also makes it much more enjoyable in wet conditions. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2018, 10:49:53 AM »
I think I may have created some confusion.


My biggest peeve is not short grass (fairway vs. rough)
That is another debate and the one I think Tom Doak addressed years ago in his "short grass as a hazard" thesis


It's this new, modern-high end and wanna be high end super-cut that starts about 40 yards short of a green-on an older thatchier fairway often the approach grass is replaced with a modern super short grass mowed by a separate mower-There is a distinct drop from fairway height to approach height where a 45 yard shot is played off a "fairway" lie and a 35 yard shot is played off a super tight, thatchless monostand(often because it's new) where the ONLY way to hit the center of the club is to take a divot because of the height of cut.
As Sean says there's certainly a cost there.
Ironically, at a high end modern course it's less noticeable due to their fairways generally being shorter anyway, but it's incredibly noticeable at an older classic course implementing it as it is not only a playability issue but an eyesore with the dramatic height drop which screams modern.


That said, I have far less of an issue with it (other than cost)anywhere they can pull it off and maintain it firm(which would seem the absolute purpose of it!). Like greens however, it seems the "fast" is always the easier and more common element than the "firm"--exactly backwards and semi-clueless golf chairman driven-just like green speed got a few years back.


The other debate about "short grass vs. rough" sure there were too many greens ringed by rough before. it's now in vogue to eliminate all rough around greens, and I believe in some cases the pendulum has swung to far---especially if a height of cut as described above, but on balance, at fairway height where firmness is maintained and imagination skill and options can exist-I'm all for it.
Just give me some greenside rough occasionally!
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2018, 01:08:14 PM »
It's this new, modern-high end and wanna be high end super-cut that starts about 40 yards short of a green-on an older thatchier fairway often the approach grass is replaced with a modern super short grass mowed by a separate mower-There is a distinct drop from fairway height to approach height where a 45 yard shot is played off a "fairway" lie and a 35 yard shot is played off a super tight, thatchless monostand(often because it's new) where the ONLY way to hit the center of the club is to take a divot because of the height of cut.


Okay Jeff, I know I'm on pretty thin ice here talking about golf technique to a pro with your credentials, but I'm a pretty damned good pitcher and chipper and I have a theory about equipment that applies here.


I think that "modern" wedges, especially the 58- to 60-degree ones, are too light and don't have enough bounce. I attribute this (perhaps wrongly) to the pervasive influence of Tour pros.


I have (had) a pretty big collection of wedges going back to 1930s and for the most part the wedges that were bringing big money in l70s and early 80s were either 1930s Wilsons or 50s and 60s Wilsons and Hagens.


When I was at the 1970 U.S Open at Hazeltine I was already a club geek and my informal survey of bags indicated that more than 75% of the bags I looked in had those wedges, regardless of the player's sponsorship.


Since I have several of them, and looked at weights and bounce. Almost without exception they swingweight at D8-9 or higher. And they also have a LOT of bounce.


I attribute this mostly to the heavy sand most courses had in their bunkers.  But the lack of bounce is also big factor in the shot you are talking about.


As you said, hitting a shot off that stuff almost requires a divot, and it better be PERFECTLY taken if you don't want a chunked or bladed shot. That's with low-bounce wedges everyone says you need for those shots.


But I used to play at a course with bare, rock hard gumbo around EVERY green.  I didn't hit many greens so I had to figure out a solution to the problem.


It turned out that I wasn't good enough to use a zero-bounce wedge everyone espoused.  BUT I experimented until I found that with more bounce I could hit down HARD on those shots and use the bounce to skid the club head under the ball.


I could even hit a ball off a cart path with that swing.


SO... back on your topic.  I don't disagree that shaving approaches has gotten out of hand, but I believe the pro's difficulties with that shot would be greatly reduced if they looked at how good players in 60s and 70s dealt with hardpan and bare lies.


Open the face on a high-bounce wedge and drive it under the ball.  It's like hitting a sand shot.

[/size]Like I said, I'm probably on thin ice here, but I have ~40 years of experience playing that shot and it works WAY better than the commonly accepted method.[size=78%]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%] [/size]
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is this OT?
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2018, 01:20:05 PM »
I think that "modern" wedges, especially the 58- to 60-degree ones, are too light and don't have enough bounce. I attribute this (perhaps wrongly) to the pervasive influence of Tour pros.
I tend to agree. I have a 21° bounce 60° wedge, and my PW (48°) has 14° bounce. My "sand wedge" at 54° has 17°.

And they're a bit heavier than standard.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

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