[Michael Wolf]

Clayts,


Maybe you've just become a "Brand Name"?


Michael

[Mike_Clayton]

Michael..
Heaven forbid:)

[Scott Warren]

Likewise, all the top Australian clubs want an American consultant, the same way they all wanted MacKenzie's help when he arrived in 1926.

All?



When I was 15, my high school Legal Studies teacher taught me one of the most valuable lessons of my life, which I still refer back to weekly. I had a habit of being overly definitive in an effort to make the strongest possible argument/point.


"Never be definitive unless you absolutely have to be," was his advice. "Superlatives will hurt you more often than they'll help you."


As Clayts points out, there's plenty of top clubs here that are doing well with Australia's premier firm. Not to mention the fact that it does you a disservice to suggest that the top clubs you're consulting to in Australia primarily sought you out because you're American and not because you're one of the best there has ever been at what it is you do.

[Tom_Doak]

Likewise, all the top Australian clubs want an American consultant, the same way they all wanted MacKenzie's help when he arrived in 1926.

All?

"Never be definitive unless you absolutely have to be," was his advice. "Superlatives will hurt you more often than they'll help you."


As Clayts points out, there's plenty of top clubs here that are doing well with Australia's premier firm. Not to mention the fact that it does you a disservice to suggest that the top clubs you're consulting to in Australia primarily sought you out because you're American and not because you're one of the best there has ever been at what it is you do.

You're right, it was a poor choice of words.  It just seems that way when I go there and there are a half dozen places that want to see me.


Also, though, I've turned down a few clubs who did make it seem like having my name attached was more important to them than whatever we might have done.

[Mark_F]

When I was 15, my high school Legal Studies teacher

[size=78%]Not to mention the fact that it does you a disservice to suggest that the top clubs you're consulting to in Australia primarily sought you out because you're American and not because you're one of the best there has ever been at what it is you do. [/size]

Like NSW and Norman?
The Aus and Nicklaus?
Kooyonga and Hawtree?
Grange and Norman?
RM and Hawtree?
Yarra and Hawtree?
The potato farmer and Coore?
Atrocean and Doak?

[Don Jordan]

I have been waiting on this volume for a while and excited to read through. My uneducated 2 cents


Lake Karrinyup is a little lower in the ratings than I might have thought, while the front nine is solid I think the back 9 is one of the best in Australia and a great tournament test. I really like what OCCM have done with the refresh.


Loved seeing Albany in the mix - fond memories of hitting a 7 degree driver of the deck to get under the wind.


Having played a number of Thomson/Wolveridge courses the note about Alice Springs being one of their best is on the money. The view of the range and the way the 8th is carved between 2 rock faces is fun to play and a nice bunch of members. Trust me though there is no other reason to be in Alice Springs except to pass through.


The note on Kooyonga as a good member course is spot on, A very enjoyable day but RA is the better test.


Agree the Australian is boring and feels just like another Jack Nicklaus course - a course calling itself thenAustralian should at least feel like an Australian course!


A bit kind to Royal Canberra - the back nine is very good but the front nine has been screwed up a bit by the club unfortunately- too much long rough.


I find myself in agreement with the Melbourne rankings mostly, nice to see Commonwealth and Victoria ahead of Metro. Feels a little kind to Yarra though.


I loved St Andrews Beach - arguably best value for money I have seen. Moonah is awesome and a highlight for Norman, played it in tournament mode and member tees and is good on both accounts.


Thanks to Tom, Darius, Ran and Masa for this edition, great to have a reference guide for the homeland!

[Adam_Messix]

I understand Tom raising the score of RME.  After my first playing I wondered what all of the fuss was about and agreed totally that the early holes in the back paddock were  let down.  I have changed my tune after several plays and find the 11th one of the best simply designed holes i have seen.  I think that wider courses where angles of play are important tend to be the easiest to miss in terms of quality. There are those rare courses where you keep seeing new things after many plays (NGLA most notably) and RME falls into that rare camp.  Great courses get better with each play and Tom saw that in RME.


Great call on Waverly in NZ.  I might be inclined to go higher but the sheep must have been doing a better job in 2017 with the mowing!


I wonder if the other 3 raters have only seen Tara Iti once (visit).  My guess is that it is better than an 8 but I think it is similar to RME in terms of seeing more features in successive visits. 

[Ken Fry]

Not to thread jack or pull up RM West again but I have a question.


Am I off base that I didn't care much for holes 13-16?  They just seemed a bit off from the rest of the course.


Ken

[Adam_Messix]

Ken--

I think the reason you think that the holes across the road on RMW are not of the same quality is because the land is pretty flat and is not as interesting as the holes in the main paddock.  Saying this, two of my strongest thoughts on the course came from those four holes.  I stepped on the 13th tee and described the hole to the group as, "131 yards of wow" because I loved the way the hole looked and going to 15 (which most folks think is the weakest hole on the west which is understandable) I blurted out, "this hole looks straight out of Sunningdale."  I love the subtle angles that 14 present and 16 is a strong par 3 that is a bit different than the rest of the course, you could argue that the green is a bit out of character and a bit too difficult for a hole that long.  I'm sure I will get a chorus of disagreement here but it is easy to think of 15 as easy.... until you change the par to 4 and number 5 at NGLA pops into mind when I think this.   I've seen a 3 made on 15 and a 7 made on it without seeing a really bad shot hit so to me the hole is fine and quite good.... it just suffers in comparison to the remainder of the course. 

One more surprise from Volume 5:  Tom Doak gave the same score to Mission Hills Blackstone and Shanqin Bay.  I like Blackstone a bunch (and I think 7 may very well be correct as a score) although it would be even better if they irrigated it less but I did not see it in the same league at SB.  The site of SB was impressive, I loved the greens, and there were subtle features like the little hump in front of 2 green that made it a world class course. 

[Matthew Mollica]

As usual Adam, very astute comments. Thanks for contributing.


13 on West has to be one of golf’s best example of making a silk purse from a sow’s ear.

[Tom_Doak]

13 on West has to be one of golf’s best example of making a silk purse from a sow’s ear.

I agree that 13 West is an underrated hole, but the same goes double for 13 East.

[Kyle Henderson]

Of the 15th (434 meters/477 yards), which was formerly the 4th hole on the old “Sandringham” golf course, architect Alister MacKenzie remarked “I’ll leave it more or less as it is, to show people how bad the old design was.” I didn’t think the 15th was half bad, though the tee shot is a bit dull.The tees are left of frame (this is the view from the 14th green) and pointed at the wide and rather flat fairway viewed yonder.Once in the fairway, things may get a bit more interesting, especially if the green is within reach. If it is not, the broken ground up ahead is cause for concern.One can lay up past the broken ground and carry bunker (favor the right side) for an easy uphill approach.

Ken--

I think the reason you think that the holes across the road on RMW are not of the same quality is because the land is pretty flat and is not as interesting as the holes in the main paddock.  Saying this, two of my strongest thoughts on the course came from those four holes.  I stepped on the 13th tee and described the hole to the group as, "131 yards of wow" because I loved the way the hole looked and going to 15 (which most folks think is the weakest hole on the west which is understandable) I blurted out, "this hole looks straight out of Sunningdale."  I love the subtle angles that 14 present and 16 is a strong par 3 that is a bit different than the rest of the course, you could argue that the green is a bit out of character and a bit too difficult for a hole that long.  I'm sure I will get a chorus of disagreement here but it is easy to think of 15 as easy.... until you change the par to 4 and number 5 at NGLA pops into mind when I think this.   I've seen a 3 made on 15 and a 7 made on it without seeing a really bad shot hit so to me the hole is fine and quite good.... it just suffers in comparison to the remainder of the course. 

One more surprise from Volume 5:  Tom Doak gave the same score to Mission Hills Blackstone and Shanqin Bay.  I like Blackstone a bunch (and I think 7 may very well be correct as a score) although it would be even better if they irrigated it less but I did not see it in the same league at SB.  The site of SB was impressive, I loved the greens, and there were subtle features like the little hump in front of 2 green that made it a world class course.

[Adam_Messix]

Kyle


I have read the good Doctor's comments re 15 at RMW.  I think I read in Dr. Green's book that 15 is the only hole to survive from the original RM to present.  Keep in mind that MacKenzie did not hold Pine Valley in high regard either.  Also most holes on older courses have changed in how they are played because of equipment.  What was a dull 3 shotter can become an exciting gambling risk/reward type hole.


As an aside it is always interesting to read an architects view on a hole that they do not necessarily like that others do.  Sometimes the take has merit, other times I wonder what the heck they are thinking. 

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