[Jim Franklin]

This geographical area still has the numbers one and two on my want to play list: 1. RMW 2. Tara Iti

[Brian Walshe]

Tom,


I suppose the bigger question is what changed at RME from the original Guide to this edition that it went from 6 to 8.

[Tom_Doak]

I suppose the bigger question is what changed at RME from the original Guide to this edition that it went from 6 to 8.

I know the East Course a lot better now, for one thing, and it's a really testing course.  I thought the stretch of the 5th-9th holes was a real weakness originally, but I like all of those better now, and the 11th and 13th are much better than I had recognized.  I still could have gone either way with a 7 or an 8, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt; there are too many world-class holes there for none of us to give it an 8.

[David_Elvins]

At the risk of repeating something I’ve posted several times before on a variety of forums, I’m not certain Composite is far superior to West. When you think of holes like 9,13,16 on West being omitted from the Composite, the gap between the two is perhaps not as broad as people suggest.

Sorry Matt,  that wasn't the debate I was trying to start.  More saying that RMW is at a disadvantage to other courses in contention for a perfect score because the others dont potentially have a better course on the same property.


Anyway, it hasn't stopped 3 of the confidential guide judges from giving a 10 an I dont really care for ratings in general so it's probably a moot point anyway.

[Matthew Mollica]

Ah ha - sorry to misinterpret you Dave. I now understand what you meant! And for what it’s worth I agree.


And thanks Tom for your views on the East course. Most members think it is 2 or more shots harder than West, as you suggested. I agree that stretch of East 10-13 is under appreciated. It is also better for the work on it in recent years.

[Jim Nugent]

I suppose the bigger question is what changed at RME from the original Guide to this edition that it went from 6 to 8.

I know the East Course a lot better now, for one thing, and it's a really testing course.

That's pretty revealing.  It suggests that if you got to know some other courses a lot better, their scores also could change dramatically. 

[Tom_Doak]

I suppose the bigger question is what changed at RME from the original Guide to this edition that it went from 6 to 8.

I know the East Course a lot better now, for one thing, and it's a really testing course.

That's pretty revealing.  It suggests that if you got to know some other courses a lot better, their scores also could change dramatically.

Well, I'm entitled to change my mind occasionally when I feel it's warranted, but don't hold your breath for other big changes.  In general, I give the benefit of the doubt to a lot of the courses that have good bones, so there isn't much room for them to score higher as the result of good consulting work. This is one of the rare cases where I hadn't given that benefit of the doubt.  It's really more of a one-point jump, and those happen all the time.

[Chris Kane]

It's really more of a one-point jump, and those happen all the time.

Tom Doak, you are one of the greatest golf course designers that ever lived...but that doesn't give you the right to revise the decimal number system!

[Michael Wolf]

Just finished V5,


My main takeaways...


- The world is a big place. Seems like South America and Asia have the best potential for producing new 8+'s in the 21st century.


- Felt like the tone on Japan from the collaborators was much more positive overall than Tom's comments in the last edition (Kasumigaseki excepted)? Not sure if the 4 authors collective thoughts were also influenced by the relative costs vs 20 years ago when the previous edition was written?


- Carrying over from a thread a few weeks back, Lan Hai/Yangtze Dunes was the course that I'd never heard of that I now want to go play based on the single picture in the new edition. Tom - was the picture from before or after Clayton's recent work?


- I really, really wish my first trip to OZ wasn't still 14 months away. Already counting down the time.


Michael

[Tom_Doak]

- Felt like the tone on Japan from the collaborators was much more positive overall than Tom's comments in the last edition (Kasumigaseki excepted)? Not sure if the 4 authors collective thoughts were also influenced by the relative costs vs 20 years ago when the previous edition was written?


- Carrying over from a thread a few weeks back, Lan Hai/Yangtze Dunes was the course that I'd never heard of that I now want to go play based on the single picture in the new edition. Tom - was the picture from before or after Clayton's recent work?

I had just put the book to bed for publishing when I saw the press release about Yangtze Dunes.  I'd known Clayts was working on something over there but didn't realize it was the same place that Masa really liked "before".  We could not get there in time to see it "after" but I will do so if I ever get back that way.


As for Japan, my original reviews were from my first trip there in 1991 or '92, when we were on a mission to see all the "big" courses.  Since then, Ran has been to rave about Naruo and Darius saw a few places I hadn't that he liked, but I had to go to Tokyo this spring to sit down with Masa and get him to open up about a few of the hidden gems there.  Those are the ones I want to see now.

[Michael Wolf]

Tom,


Do you sense that most of the work in the regions covered by Vol5 will continue to go to "brand name" designers for the foreseeable future, or will there be more regional specialists developing? It seems like, at least anecdotally, there have been more and more young Chinese and Thai agronomy interns in the States? Has the % and quality of local talent increased on the crews you use overseas?


Michael

[Jeff Schley]

Michael... good 411 on the first impressions. I'm anxiously awaiting my copy as being so far I'll have to wait a while longer.  I'm close to Asia comparatively and will use it to help plan some golf vacations for sure.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Another excellent volume...


... If I’m honest, the biggest surprise for me was that Tara Iti *only* got 8’s across the board.


Given it’s lofty Top-100 ranking and the number of people on here that rave about it as definitely a Tom top-3, I was expecting it to average around 9.

[Mike_Clayton]

Michael,


The picture of Lan Hai is our new work.

[Matthew Mollica]

Another excellent volume...


... If I’m honest, the biggest surprise for me was that Tara Iti *only* got 8’s across the board.


Given it’s lofty Top-100 ranking and the number of people on here that rave about it as definitely a Tom top-3, I was expecting it to average around 9.

You weren’t alone Ally!


As usual, there were a few scores that stimulated discussion, especially among the Australians with whom I’ve discussed the book. Makes for interesting chat during a round, that’s for sure!

[Tim_Weiman]

Wow, all those miles I flew the past two years and the only thing anybody comments on is whether Darius was too stingy on RMW?


If you're going to argue about Royal Melbourne it would be better to dissect who was right about RME.  There are some great holes in the back paddock as well.

Tom,


Volume 5 is pretty impressive, leaving me with the feeling that there are many miles in the golf world I haven’t traveled.

[Pete_Pittock]

Thanks for the thread. Was waiting for it to arrive and found out it was never ordered.


Commonwealth got 7-7-7-7 and was one of three nominations for worst remodel. Tom had it as an 8 in prior volumes. Would it be capped as an 8, or could it have been a 9?  Pretty sure Huntingdale's remodel was far worse.


When you have so many good courses in one area does the bottom range of good clubs seem to grade out slightly lower than if it had been in a less competitive region.

[Jeff Schley]

Just came today!  Looking over it the first couple hours a few impressions:
1. Asia golf owners wanted big name players to design many of their tracks. 


2. Wow Brian Curley must have made a fortune at Mission Hills alone!  I want to research that again and figure out why they gave him so much business there. I knew it was a huge complex but why give them this many courses?  Also curious his relationship to the name players in Shenzhen area.

3. Jack Nicklaus got rewarded well for getting on the plane quite a bit.  Pretty good number of courses for his company, not sure how much he was actually there himself.

4. Liked that in Australia several courses have credits of designed by some members.

5. Was hoping to see Cathedral Golf Club listed, although I'm sure it was because I think it just opened last year so probably not enough time to get there (outside Melbourne).

6. Thailand is overrated for golf and it shows with a bunch of 4-5's. I have golfed several times there and the clubhouses are great, the courses not so much.

7. A new target of mine is Himalayan in Nepal.  Looks like a wonderful treat and Nepal is so beautiful would be a great trip.  Thanks for highlighting it as a Gourmet's Choice.

Will go through it over the next week or so intensely I'm sure as it really is a Xmas present for us golf geeks.

[Kyle Harris]

Wow, all those miles I flew the past two years and the only thing anybody comments on is whether Darius was too stingy on RMW?


If you're going to argue about Royal Melbourne it would be better to dissect who was right about RME.  There are some great holes in the back paddock as well.

You've hit the nail on the head regarding 99% of golf architecture writing. I am forever grateful that you did get to Dunes at Seville before it closed.

Signed,


The guy that wants to take Tom Doak to Brooksville Country Club

[Ryan Farrow]

Wow, all those miles I flew the past two years and the only thing anybody comments on is whether Darius was too stingy on RMW?


If you're going to argue about Royal Melbourne it would be better to dissect who was right about RME.  There are some great holes in the back paddock as well.

You've hit the nail on the head regarding 99% of golf architecture writing. I am forever grateful that you did get to Dunes at Seville before it closed.

Signed,


The guy that wants to take Tom Doak to Brooksville Country Club

Brooksville CC is alright!




Jeff,


I don't think any architect made a fortune in China, many were not paid or paid less than what was agreed. A lot of free work was done because that was expected in order to land a job. Moral of the story, get paid up front.


Listen to Derek Duncan's feed the ball podcast interview he just did with Brian Curley. He answers a few of your questions.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,


Do you sense that most of the work in the regions covered by Vol5 will continue to go to "brand name" designers for the foreseeable future, or will there be more regional specialists developing? It seems like, at least anecdotally, there have been more and more young Chinese and Thai agronomy interns in the States? Has the % and quality of local talent increased on the crews you use overseas?

I'm not in a good position to answer the last question, because I bring the talent with me for the courses we build, so as not to be handicapped if the locals aren't up to the task.


To the first question, it seems to me that the wealthy of Asia are even more into international name brands than Americans are, so no matter how good the locals are, somebody who wants to sell that they're building a special course almost has to bring in an overseas designer, even if they are no more than a figurehead.


Likewise, all the top Australian clubs want an American consultant, the same way they all wanted MacKenzie's help when he arrived in 1926.


Meanwhile New Zealanders don't care about name brands at all.  Luckily for me, the best projects there have been developed by Americans and are not marketed to Kiwis as much as they are to overseas visitors. 😉

[Tom_Doak]

Another excellent volume...


... If I’m honest, the biggest surprise for me was that Tara Iti *only* got 8’s across the board.


Given it’s lofty Top-100 ranking and the number of people on here that rave about it as definitely a Tom top-3, I was expecting it to average around 9.

Ally,
I gave it a 9 and my opinion comes first.  I think my associates missed something there.  But they've only seen it once and they all lost to me in our tournament there 😉

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:


If you or anyone else wants to go to Nepal, please email and I will put you in touch with the director of golf at Golarna Forest, who set up my whole visit.  You can't go to Nepal and not meet him: as I said in the acknowledgements in the front of the book, he's the Tom Morris of Nepal.

[Stephen Davis]

Another excellent volume...


... If I’m honest, the biggest surprise for me was that Tara Iti *only* got 8’s across the board.


Given it’s lofty Top-100 ranking and the number of people on here that rave about it as definitely a Tom top-3, I was expecting it to average around 9.

Ally,
I gave it a 9 and my opinion comes first.  I think my associates missed something there.  But they've only seen it once and they all lost to me in our tournament there 😉

This was my biggest surprise as well. Granted I haven't been to the regions covered in this book, BUT I know several people who have visited Tara Iti, and all came back with glowing reviews. Half a dozen of them have said that it is in the discussion for the best course in the world. I don't know if it is that discussion or not, but sounds like more than an 8 to me.

[Mike_Clayton]

Tom,


Most Australians consider Lake Karrinyup,The Lakes,Royal Queensland,Victoria,Kingston Heath, Commonwealth,Royal Canberra and Peninsula/Kingswood top Australian clubs:)

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