[Mike_Young]

I was reading topics this morning and came across the "ranking Renn Golf courses and was thinking.  Excluding rework, communing with ODG's as their tool for restoration and renovations I don't think there are more than 25 guys.  I'm not dissing anyone with less, I'm just saying the list will become smaller before it becomes larger. 

[Tom_Doak]

I would have guessed more like 40, but you could be right if you are limiting it to Americans.


Besides you and me can you think of anyone else who qualifies who's not in the ASGCA?

[Mike_Young]

I'm was trying to think and that's what made me ask but I would say these guys:
Tom Jackson,Tom Weiskopf,Rocky Rocquemore,Mahana (sp.?) in FloridaAnd there has to be more I just don't know because they are mostly regional...

Watch me troll Jeff B out here....my guess if you were to take ASGCA living members...less than half would have the five required if not allowed to use courses for the company they worked for.  AND  there are a lot less firms than there are members...

[Tom_Doak]

Wow, I went to the ASGCA web site to see how many I could find, and there are just so many guys there about whom I have no idea whether they've done ten courses on their own or not.  There are around 25 who have certainly done that many, and probably a few more who have gotten over the line but whose work I'm unfamiliar with.


I was up to 12 before I got to Pacific Dunes, though two of those were major remodels.

[Mike_Young]

Wow, I went to the ASGCA web site to see how many I could find, and there are just so many guys there about whom I have no idea whether they've done ten courses on their own or not.  There are around 25 who have certainly done that many, and probably a few more who have gotten over the line but whose work I'm unfamiliar with.


I was up to 12 before I got to Pacific Dunes, though two of those were major remodels.

I saw a spreadsheet one of the Landscape Architecture students here in Athens did and it showed how many had never done an 18 hole course once they left the employ of the company that got them in ASGCA.  And it showed how many ASGCA members used employer courses as their application courses.   While we all acknowledge that building a project is a team effort and not a one man show, I would wager there less than 50 members have their names on a scorecard as the designer...

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am double figures, could probably stretch it past 20 if I included par 3 courses, routing only, collaborations. There must be more than 10 in the UK alone.


Martin Hawtree - Howard Swan - David Williams - John Gaunt - Peter Alliss - Nick Faldo - Ian Woosnam - Simon Gidman - Grant Aitken (maybe)...there must be many more

[Tom_Doak]

Has Faldo's design company built ten courses on their own?  I'm sure his name is on more than ten scorecards, but then you have to take those courses away from Steve Smyers and Brian Curley.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Has Faldo's design company built ten courses on their own?  I'm sure his name is on more than ten scorecards, but then you have to take those courses away from Steve Smyers and Brian Curley.

I guess who has actually done the job will always be the for many of the names.

[Mike_Young]

Has Faldo's design company built ten courses on their own?  I'm sure his name is on more than ten scorecards, but then you have to take those courses away from Steve Smyers and Brian Curley.

I guess who has actually done the job will always be the for many of the names.

As one who has always done design/build, I have felt a huge disconnect the two times we have had to use a genral conttractor and just show up for  a site visit here and there so I don't know what it would feel like to be a guy who has designs that he just went ot the site a couple of times per month to see what a contractor had done.  I'm not saying that's wrong but it's not for me.  But I say that to emphasize the amount of time put into a project and if one is a tour player with endorsement deals all over the place he doesn't have the passion or the time to really be designing.  There may be exceptions but they would very few. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Different answer, but this chart from a few years ago shows how hard it is to build 10 new projects.
I was interested to see the trajectory of new 18 hole courses by particular designers.
While maybe not entirely accurate it is interesting; the vertical axis is # new courses, the horizontal axis is their years in business
I picked a variety.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:


Who is the dark blue line - Nicklaus?


The green one looks like mine.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Stanley Thompson
I had 10 years between his first ('99) and 2nd courses ('10). The 1920s were a hell of a decade for him.
Perry Maxwell is the light blue line.
The green line stops in 2010'.

Cheers

[Mike_Young]

Mike N.,
That's a nice chart.  After I read the book Outliers I realized this entire business was about being born at the right time.  It would be interesting to do the same chart for each decade since 1900. 
If you were 35 and working for yourself in 1985 then you probably had a chance to build a significant number of new projects over 25 years.  If you were 35 in 1985 and working under some signature or a larger national firm then you may have been busy but when the tide turned and they dumped your ass, you were a little to late to start.  And today if a 35 year old dude was to try the same thing he could only do it if he were building them as well as designing them and it would still be difficult.  Talent is great but there needs to be a market...

[Ian Andrew]

Stanley Thompson
I had 10 years between his first ('99) and 2nd courses ('10). The 1920s were a hell of a decade for him.

Just sayin' ... it's commonly believed Muskoka Lakes (1920) is his first course.

[Ian Andrew]

After I read the book Outliers I realized this entire business was about being born at the right time. 

I always felt I was either lucky or unlucky (or both) on that end...

I have a solid business because I began early enough (in the late 1980's and early 1990's) to establish myself.

BUT ... I bet "my own company" won't work on a new project before I walk away because I won't be young enough to see the next expansion. It's still a long ways away. I'll see rebuilds ... but I doubt anything from raw land.

[Ian Andrew]

If you eliminated every North American architect with ten "new" courses built, I would be willing to bet $1000. that there would not be another architect added to that list by 2030 (even counting the courses they have designed to date). There's nothing in the economics of the game (or trends in the design business) to suggest any change in direction.

[Mike_Young]

If you eliminated every North American architect with ten "new" courses built, I would be willing to bet $1000. that there would not be another architect added to that list by 2030 (even counting the courses they have designed to date). There's nothing in the economics of the game (or trends in the design business) to suggest any change in direction.

Agree....Merry Christmas...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, I had to count.....I fit Mikes "35 in 1985" mode (actually 29 in 1984 when I started my firm)


 Private Clubs: (5 New, 3 Total Renovations, 2 Nine Hole Additions)
Destination/Resort Courses: (7 New, 1 Total Renovation)
High End Daily Fee Courses: (18 New, 1 Total Renovation)

City/County Golf Courses: (5 New, 3 Total Renovation, 5- 9 Hole Additions)

 
Specialty Courses: (5 – 3 Nine Hole par 3, 2 18 Hole Executive)


Making it 37 New 18 hole regulation/championship courses new, and 6 total renovations,  for 42.
7 Nine hole courses, and 2 Executive 18 holes for an additional 9 specialty type courses.


If I counted right, I am at a nice round 50! Found another one last night)


As to top 10, in no order, Giant's Ridge (Quarry, Legend) Wilderness at Fortune Bay, Superior National, Firekeeper, Sand Creek Station, Colbert Hills, Cowboys, Tangleridge, Wild Wing Avocet.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you Ian
I may have thought of you when I sought the data 10 years ago, but figured it was close enough for my needs.
With your correction that would shift his curve drastically to the left.
I'm not sure which curve would be more impressive.
I hope you are wrong about your own self prognosis!
Cheers

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