[Garland Bayley]

I don’t think so.  A person that’s hit so many balls knows when they’ve hit it multiple times.  You can’t tell me otherwise.  As to your second comment...my mind was open until I saw what happened.  But thanks for trying to scew my opinion.

Since science has shown that a player cannot percieve the feel of a golf ball with his hands when his hearing is blocked, I can understand that a 2 inch stroke will not give enough audible feedback to determine anything.

[JESII]

I didn't see this live, but the comments about 25 minutes to figure out how to handle it make me wonder if Tiger saw the video...any idea?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

At the end of the Tiger...once again...Tiger brought this shit on himself.  Why on earth didn't he take a drop?  Tiger gained very little for risking a lost shot.

Because two club lengths would have had him dropping in beach sand, where he'd get a fried egg, and probably still only get the ball to about the place he played it to without the penalty stroke.

I'm sure neither Erik or I would try that shot with a 2 inch backswing for fear of a scrape call.

I would not have tried that shot, I don't think, if I couldn't make much of a backswing.

Since science has shown that a player cannot percieve the feel of a golf ball with his hands when his hearing is blocked, I can understand that a 2 inch stroke will not give enough audible feedback to determine anything.

Yep. The sound being muffled with sand and all of those branches and leaves and things support the idea that Tiger didn't "feel" the ball hitting the clubhead twice. Especially since it really appeared to be "pushed" a bit, and because it happened so fast.

I didn't see this live, but the comments about 25 minutes to figure out how to handle it make me wonder if Tiger saw the video...any idea?

Tiger saw the video and said that he appeared to double-hit it on video, but as HD/slow-mo was needed, it's not a penalty.

He's right, but I can't help but think he should have just said "look, I'm taking a penalty there, because it's my duty to play the ball correctly, and whether I double hit it or didn't make a legal stroke, that wasn't how I want to play golf." But he didn't, and the opportunity was lost. It's disappointing, but he's just a dude, and I'm not playing against him, and I've never made a sports figure a role model, a hero, etc.

[JLahrman]

He's right, but I can't help but think he should have just said "look, I'm taking a penalty there, because it's my duty to play the ball correctly, and whether I double hit it or didn't make a legal stroke, that wasn't how I want to play golf." But he didn't, and the opportunity was lost. It's disappointing, but he's just a dude, and I'm not playing against him, and I've never made a sports figure a role model, a hero, etc.

Because that's putting the onus on every other player to assess himself penalties if shown things in slow motion video after the round, and isn't that exactly what isn't supposed to happen anymore, even if it's the player calling it instead of the tournament informing the player of the penalty? Every other player is going to look bad if he/she doesn't assess a penalty to him/herself after the round after they come out of the ol' video tent. Because Tiger did it.


And really, isn't it already bad enough that we think players are displaying poor etiquette after a round if they don't take their hats off to shake hands? Because Tiger does it.


Do I think it's possible for a player to move a ball that far with a two-inch backswing? Yes. Do I think it's possible to not notice a double hit or a scoop, given that the club was also making contact with sand and tree leaves? Yes, I absolutely think it's possible.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Because that's putting the onus on every other player to assess himself penalties if shown things in slow motion video after the round, and isn't that exactly what isn't supposed to happen anymore, even if it's the player calling it instead of the tournament informing the player of the penalty?

I get what you're saying, but in this particular case I disagree almost entirely because of the combination of the two circumstances: the double hit AND the really, really short backswing.

Every other player is going to look bad if he/she doesn't assess a penalty to him/herself after the round after they come out of the ol' video tent. Because Tiger did it.

That doesn't strike me as the worst thing in the world…

And really, isn't it already bad enough that we think players are displaying poor etiquette after a round if they don't take their hats off to shake hands? Because Tiger does it.

I couldn't care less about that. I don't take my hat off. It's almost a 21st century thing (except it started late in the 20th century).

Do I think it's possible for a player to move a ball that far with a two-inch backswing? Yes. Do I think it's possible to not notice a double hit or a scoop, given that the club was also making contact with sand and tree leaves? Yes, I absolutely think it's possible.

Possible is not the same as probable. I still think it's believable that he didn't feel the double-hit, and only saw it on the video, which you can't use to support a penalty.

So really, in truth, I wish he'd just dropped after taking an unplayable. 

[Michael Moore]

Do I think it's possible for a player to move a ball that far with a two-inch backswing? Yes.

If Tiger Woods can't do it (this was shown on replay), which player are you talking about?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If Tiger Woods can't do it (this was shown on replay), which player are you talking about?

On a putting green I think you could hit it pretty far (and legally). I just don't know that you can do it from 2" on a sandy lie like that.

[Tony_Muldoon]

If a double hit ceases to be a penalty, whats to stop me rolling a 2' long putt in with a single slow swipe?

[Thomas Dai]

To paraphrase Bobby Jones comment about the young Jack Nicklaus -

“we now have a game that some play by rules with which the rest of us are unfamiliar.”
Atb

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If a double hit ceases to be a penalty, whats to stop me rolling a 2' long putt in with a single slow swipe?

That would not meet the definition of a stroke, and in 2019, you'd be in breach of 10.1a.

[Kalen Braley]

Its interesting to see how when Jordan Speith bent the rules to gain an advantage in The Open....he was heavily praised and "smart".


But when Tiger used the rules to do same he's roundly skewered...

[jeffwarne]

Its interesting to see how when Jordan Speith bent the rules to gain an advantage in The Open....he was heavily praised and "smart".


But when Tiger used the rules to do same he's roundly skewered...

Kalen,
I did not praise Jordan. I felt he clearly should have been warned, and then penalized for undue delay.
But an official was in charge AS it was proceeding, so in the absence of the official properly accelerating the process, Jordan was simply being oblivious to his fellow competitor and selfish. I also said at the time he was an inconsiderate douche for not playing the shot at least 10 minutes sooner.


After watching the Tiger video, at normal speed you can't make out what happened exactly, but the ball takes a weird turn. The kind've turn it might take if I shoved a ball with a super wristy 2 inch backswing from sandy rough and it stuck to the wildly releasing club.As I posted before-most players know the risk of that short of a backswing on a doublehit/scrape and woudn't try it.
The new rule says you don't call it if super slow motion is needed to reveal it.
If you feel the need to review it, then you sense something is wrong.
In this case, I believe Tiger should've called a scrape as that is what he clearly did (I saw a much better video today and whether it's a double hit or a scrape-it's clearly a violation)
he was in dead last in his own event-an opportunity to finish second to last or get a virtually free chance to boost his checkered reputation.


Put another way..
What wold Bobby Jones have done in the Inaugural Masters?


Let's just say there in 50 years probably won't be amateurs delaying their pro careers to stay eligible for the HeroMatchATTGenisisAmbianPerkinsVegasFoundation Classic..........

[Rob Marshall]

If a double hit ceases to be a penalty, whats to stop me rolling a 2' long putt in with a single slow swipe?

I believe there is no penalty but I think you have to count both times the club hits the ball as strokes. I think.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

As to Jordan, I was speaking to the golf community at large, and most here in the tree house, even if not universally applied to everyone.

I think you make an interesting point about context...specifically to point out that Jordan's violation was far more damning as he did it deliberately at the expense of his fellow competitors to win on golf's biggest stage.  What did Tiger have at stake?  Avoiding last place in a silly season event in the Bahamas that counts for nothing.

In retrospect, its clear Tiger used the rules to his advantage that they couldn't prove he did a double hit without the high speed cameras.  Ditto on the scrape, in real time, you can't tell conclusively even if slow mo might suggest otherwise.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I believe there is no penalty but I think you have to count both times the club hits the ball as strokes. I think.

Double hits count as one stroke in 2019. If you just "push" the ball, though, that's a different matter - 10.1a would get you on that one.

[Garland Bayley]

If a double hit ceases to be a penalty, whats to stop me rolling a 2' long putt in with a single slow swipe?

I believe there is no penalty but I think you have to count both times the club hits the ball as strokes. I think.

I think Tony was referring to continuous contact, not discrete double strikes.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If a double hit ceases to be a penalty, whats to stop me rolling a 2' long putt in with a single slow swipe?

I believe there is no penalty but I think you have to count both times the club hits the ball as strokes. I think.

I think Tony was referring to continuous contact, not discrete double strikes.

Continuous contact would be one time, not "both" times.

Regardless, the Rules here are pretty clear and simple:

	2018	2019
Pushing, Scraping, Spooning	Penalty	Penalty
Double-Hitting (or more)	Penalty	No Penalty

[Ken Moum]

Jordan's violation was far more damning as he did it deliberately at the expense of his fellow competitors to win on golf's biggest stage.

(My bold)



That's complete and utter Bullshit.


He was taking an unplayable lie, He asked Paramour where he could do it if he went back from the ball's location.


It took that long to sort though his options and come to decision on what was going to be a "legal" drop.


I watched it live and at no time did I sense that anyone was delaying play for any reason other than getting it right.


K

[jeffwarne]

Jordan's violation was far more damning as he did it deliberately at the expense of his fellow competitors to win on golf's biggest stage.

(My bold)



That's complete and utter Bullshit.


He was taking an unplayable lie, He asked Paramour where he could do it if he went back from the ball's location.


It took that long to sort though his options and come to decision on what was going to be a "legal" drop.


I watched it live and at no time did I sense that anyone was delaying play for any reason other than getting it right.


K

Ken,
I'll wade in
I think Kalen phrased that poorly.
hard to believe that he "deliberately" was trying to make it at Kuchar's expense, although he was shockingly "deliberate"


I've watched Jordan many times live, and he does not play when officials request him to play, stretching the edge of what's reasonable, expecting an exact walked off yardage from ALL points on and nearly off the course.
The player is not entitled to that.
last year's Open he was a Human rain delay, hitting it over and over into the shite, not playing until his caddie had triangulated yardage, paced yardage, THEN the discussion started-multiple times he was told to play and then ignored until told firmly "play away"
There was NO ONE watching him (in the last group of the day)on 9 at Carnoustie as the group in front was 3 holes ahead(and they were all backed up and playing slowe themselves). Brutal.


In the incident in question, it all could have been handled much faster by the official and Jordan's liberties with obtaining a yardage and multiple practice swings and complete absence of guilt exacerbated it.
Sometimes you just can't get there from here and you move on without "undue delay" which that was. But I blame the official for letting him be deliberate with every single option then being deliberate as always with playing the shot .

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Ken, Spieth absolutely could have played that shot much more quickly. Greller standing on the dune to give him the line, pacing off the yardages, blah blah blah. He still took quite a long time after he dropped to play his shot.

He's glacial in person, and I've heard more than a few Tour guys grumbling about having to play with him. One went to a port-a-john and his caddie expressed surprise, but he said "Jordan's in the rough, I have time." He did.

[Ken Moum]

Ken, Spieth absolutely could have played that shot much more quickly. Greller standing on the dune to give him the line, pacing off the yardages, blah blah blah. He still took quite a long time after he dropped to play his shot.

He's glacial in person, and I've heard more than a few Tour guys grumbling about having to play with him. One went to a port-a-john and his caddie expressed surprise, but he said "Jordan's in the rough, I have time." He did.

Spieth is absolutely the most infuriatingly slow SOB among the good players (who we see all the time).


But suggesting that he deliberately iced Kuchar while getting one of the most complicated rulings we've seen in ages is just silly.


K

[Erik J. Barzeski]

But suggesting that he deliberately iced Kuchar while getting one of the most complicated rulings we've seen in ages is just silly.

I don't agree, and the ruling wasn't all that complicated.

After he dropped, Ken, how long did it take for him to play his shot? I'll give you a clue: it wasn't 40 seconds or so.

[Garland Bayley]

If a double hit ceases to be a penalty, whats to stop me rolling a 2' long putt in with a single slow swipe?

I believe there is no penalty but I think you have to count both times the club hits the ball as strokes. I think.

I think Tony was referring to continuous contact, not discrete double strikes.

Continuous contact would be one time, not "both" times.

Regardless, the Rules here are pretty clear and simple:

	2018	2019
Pushing, Scraping, Spooning	Penalty	Penalty
Double-Hitting (or more)	Penalty	No Penalty

Got it. Didn't fully get Tony's question.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff, Ken,

Deliberate is certainly the word I intended to use, but not to intentionally ice Kuchar...

If we presume its the players responsibility to know the rules, he deliberately disregarded Rule 6-7, and the side effect was that it Iced Kuchar...

[V. Kmetz]

Football players get the same 30 seconds to decide how to play the next play (offense and defense). 

Rich

No they don't...they get 40 seconds with no dead-ball stoppage/25 seconds with one... they also have multilple TV timeouts, reviews, and injury stoppages... they also have a break at each quarter/a 15 minute half time...they also have a small army of support coaches who have spent several weeks designing the plays for down/distance/personnel...they have radio communication to a play caller (both offense and defense)


cheers   vk

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