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Jim_Coleman

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O/T Rules Question
« on: November 29, 2018, 08:13:21 AM »
   At an Australian PGA event last night (at least it was night here), John Sendon's driver snapped at the grip while on his downswing.  Unable to stop his swing, he intentionally missed the ball.  The ruling was that the swing counted as a stroke, and that because the ball was then in play, he could not lower the tee to then hit his 3 wood.  Did they get it right?  Would the result be different under the new rules?

Chris Roselle

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2018, 08:32:46 AM »
Jim, per Decision 14/3 for the 2018 rules...

14/3
Clubhead Separates from Shaft on Downswing

Q. A player starts his downswing and the clubhead separates from the shaft. The player continues his swing but no contact is made with the ball. Did the player make a stroke?

A.Yes.


As far as 2019 is concerned if you refer to the interpretation of a STROKE you will also find your answer...


1 – Determining If a Stroke Was Made

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

The clubhead separates from the shaft during the downswing and the player continues the downswing with the shaft alone, whether or not the ball is struck with the shaft.

The clubhead separates from the shaft during the downswing and the player continues the downswing with the shaft alone, with the clubhead falling and striking the ball.

The player’s action does not count as a stroke in each of following situations:

During the downswing, a player’s clubhead separates from the shaft. The player stops the downswing short of the ball, but the clubhead falls and strikes and moves the ball.

During the backswing, a player’s clubhead separates from the shaft. The player completes the downswing with the shaft but does not strike the ball.

A ball is lodged in a tree branch beyond the reach of a club. If the player moves the ball by striking a lower part of the branch instead of the ball, Rule 9.4 (Ball Lifted or Moved by Player) applies.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 01:14:38 PM by Chris Roselle »

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2018, 09:03:12 AM »
I thought he cut his hand, but the ruling was the right one.
nice work Chris
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Jim_Coleman

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2018, 09:19:40 AM »
   Thanks. I thought it might be different under the new rules.  If it will no longer be a penalty if one unintentionally causes a ball to move, I thought, in that spirit, that it wouldn’t be a penalty if one intentionally caused a ball not to move.  Seems right.

Kyle Harris

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2018, 09:39:51 AM »
   Thanks. I thought it might be different under the new rules.  If it will no longer be a penalty if one unintentionally causes a ball to move, I thought, in that spirit, that it wouldn’t be a penalty if one intentionally caused a ball not to move.  Seems right.


There is no penalty involved. He made a stroke.  ::)
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Kalen Braley

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2018, 11:13:07 AM »
I watched it too, very bizarre, never heard of such a thing actually happening.


P.S.  I thought I read in the rules that when the ball is in on the tee, its not deemed to be in play until you actually strike it, but maybe not.  (If this had happened on his second shot, then no doubt it would be a stroke.)  This would explain how you can stick a tee in the ground, put the ball on it, decide you don't like the stance and re-tee it elsewhere on the box...which you couldn't otherwise once the ball is in play.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 11:15:15 AM by Kalen Braley »

Jason Topp

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2018, 03:27:32 PM »
I had to look up the definition of stroke,  I thought it was swinging at the ball with the intention to hit it (in which case from the description it would not seem to me to be a stroke) but the definition is more subtle than that:


"A "[/size]stroke[/color][/size]" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a [/color][/size]stroke[/color][/size]."[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]So apparently it was a stroke as soon as he started towards the ball with the intention to hit it.    [/color]

Lou_Duran

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2018, 03:39:13 PM »
The finder of fact must have determined that the golfer DID NOT attempt to alter his swing to miss the ball.  Otherwise, in my understanding of the rule, it was not a stroke.  And if it was on the tee and the ball was not in play, no penalty would have been involved whether or not he had caused the ball to move.


If it was deemed a stroke and the ball remained in the teeing area, it is my understanding that under the 2019 Rules, he could hit off the ground, tee it up, or move it to any other part within that area.

Kalen Braley

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2018, 03:55:03 PM »
The finder of fact must have determined that the golfer DID NOT attempt to alter his swing to miss the ball.  Otherwise, in my understanding of the rule, it was not a stroke.  And if it was on the tee and the ball was not in play, no penalty would have been involved whether or not he had caused the ball to move.


If it was deemed a stroke and the ball remained in the teeing area, it is my understanding that under the 2019 Rules, he could hit off the ground, tee it up, or move it to any other part within that area.


Lou,

Exactly.  He should have been able to move it to play it off the ground with his 3W.

And to Jason's point an argument could be made he didn't attempt to hit the ball.  I watched the replay like 10 times and it looked like a reaction to the shock of both the shaft breaking and a bit of pain in his hand as it broke in the grip area...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2018, 03:57:39 PM »
Goeff was pretty miffed on the telecast as the ruling came down, and afterwards too.  He makes some good points.

"...he doesn’t have a driver anymore and the ball is in play. I’ve never seen a ball on a tee in play, I didn’t understand that."

https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/news/ogilvy-sounds-off-on-senden-snap-decision-516254

Thomas Dai

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2018, 04:05:46 PM »
Aren’t there a couple of instances of Tiger ‘stopping’ mid downswing due to some distraction or other. I seem to recall he was praised for such ‘skill’.
Atb

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2018, 04:10:59 PM »
Did you hear Ogilvy tell the rules official "F You"? That was poor form

Jason Topp

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2018, 04:28:47 PM »
Aren’t there a couple of instances of Tiger ‘stopping’ mid downswing due to some distraction or other. I seem to recall he was praised for such ‘skill’.
Atb


Yes but that is not a stroke under the definition.

Chris Cupit

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2018, 05:01:10 PM »
This situation involved a question from an old Met Association test a few years back.


I didn't see the situation but had a Rules and Competition guy call today and we spoke about it.  What we think should have happened was this:


Stroke made (see definition of stroke).  (My understanding was that he did not try and avoid the ball)


Ball is in play and is actually resting on a movable obstruction (the tee).  The player could proceed under Rule 24-1b and take free relief if he wished within the teeing ground.  (The rule does not contemplate taking relief other than through the green, in a hazard or on a putting green but similar situations of a ball lying on the teeing ground results in free relief taken as if the ball were through the green).  Player would lift ball, remove tee and dropped a near as possible to the spot directly under where the ball lay but not nearer the hole.


It sounds like they may have erred in requiring him to play the ball as it lay on the tee.


« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 05:09:15 PM by Chris Cupit »

Chris Cupit

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2018, 05:07:23 PM »
Did you hear Ogilvy tell the rules official "F You"? That was poor form


Yeah-happens a lot more than you think.  I was at US Open this year on 15th green on Saturday.  Had several players dazzle me with their vocabularies and even one caddie do the same.  Even the "nice" ones seem to think that they have a right to act and speak in incredibly hostile and threatening ways.  Of course they know we just have to smile, listen and nod.  I keep waiting to have one of these jack-asses try and speak to me that way outside the course boundaries.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 05:10:48 PM by Chris Cupit »

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 06:49:16 PM »
It sounds like they may have erred in requiring him to play the ball as it lay on the tee.


He took a drop for the reason you stated. 
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kalen Braley

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2018, 07:18:11 PM »
This video shows it. 


Given the shock of what happened, i'm not sure what he could have done any different.  You swing a club tens of thousands of time, then this one time, the shaft snaps as he begins the downswing.  How could he even process that much less do anything different? 


Bad luck perhaps, but this is where the letter of the law completely falls apart...as have other golf rules...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fab15VqPF28

Peter Flory

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2018, 08:39:26 PM »
It's not at all obvious that he tried to miss that ball. 


99% of the time when someone has whiffed with the ball teed up, they will still desire to have it teed up on their next stroke (and they won't be in a tournament anyway).  Definitely a unique one. 


What is so bad about hitting a 3 wood off of a ball that is teed up slightly higher though?  I wouldn't view that as a big deal. 

Chris Cupit

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2018, 09:46:24 PM »
FWIW, I just saw video and it seemed pretty clear to me it was a stroke--no effort to avoid hitting the ball.  If they allowed him to drop the ball and play it off the ground, hitting his second shot, I think they nailed it.  :)


Weird situation.  Glad he wasn't hurt.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2018, 10:21:59 PM »
Thanks. I thought it might be different under the new rules.  If it will no longer be a penalty if one unintentionally causes a ball to move, I thought, in that spirit, that it wouldn’t be a penalty if one intentionally caused a ball not to move.  Seems right.
No, still a stroke in 2019. No penalty involved here.

https://rulesgeeks.com/2018/11/john-sendens-club-breaks-mid-downswing/

If it was deemed a stroke and the ball remained in the teeing area, it is my understanding that under the 2019 Rules, he could hit off the ground, tee it up, or move it to any other part within that area.
6.2a, yes.

Exactly.  He should have been able to move it to play it off the ground with his 3W.

He did. His ball was sitting on an obstruction (his tee).
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 08:37:15 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jim_Coleman

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2018, 10:31:34 PM »
   I’m pretty sure I heard Sendon state that he tried to miss the ball.  I guess he either wasn’t believed or came off that claim.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2018, 11:00:44 PM »
I’m pretty sure I heard Sendon state that he tried to miss the ball.  I guess he either wasn’t believed or came off that claim.
Physically impossible. The shaft snapped after what we call "A5" - after the left arm is horizontal on the downswing. A signal literally cannot travel down your nerves from your brain to, say, your arms fast enough to change anything before impact would occur. Never mind the time it would take to have a thought, consider what went wrong, and how to do something about it.

And… https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/news/ogilvy-sounds-off-on-senden-snap-decision-516254 has Senden saying:

I had no chance of actually stopping the shot, so unfortunately that counts as actually one stroke. I was playing two shots off the tee. So, you know, it just happens. I've seen it happen before to other players, but first time it's happened to me in a tournament.”
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2018, 12:46:46 PM »
Eric,


Thanks for the clarification, I was under the impression he had to take a drop off the tee and was hitting 3 on his next shot.


P.S. I also agree it was basically impossible for him to stop his swing at the moment of breakage.  It seems like there could be some leeway there, kind of like how they changed the rule if your ball moves on the green even if you're addressing it.  These are the kind of scenarios that some look at cringe for not having a "reasonable" allowance.

Peter Flory

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2018, 01:41:27 PM »
He also mentioned not having a driver for the remainder of the round.


Why didn't he replace it?  If he had a backup with him, he could have used that.  If he didn't have a backup, he could have had someone go to the pro shop and bring him a different one- not even the same model. 




I guess he probably hits his 3W 280, so not that big of a deal.  But my assumption was that all of these pros had backups with them.  I remember Zach Johnson did when his driver broke. 

Chris Roselle

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Re: O/T Rules Question
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2018, 03:17:19 PM »
He also mentioned not having a driver for the remainder of the round.


Why didn't he replace it?  If he had a backup with him, he could have used that.  If he didn't have a backup, he could have had someone go to the pro shop and bring him a different one- not even the same model. 




I guess he probably hits his 3W 280, so not that big of a deal.  But my assumption was that all of these pros had backups with them.  I remember Zach Johnson did when his driver broke.


And in 2019 I don't think you'll be able to replace a club broken during the normal course of play unless it is damaged during the round by an outside influence or natural forces or by any person other than the player or his or her caddie
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 03:19:13 PM by Chris Roselle »

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