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Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2018, 02:02:32 PM »
I'd nominate my course for this; LedgeRock. 


Of.  Really?  I have never been there, but a friend of mine was involved and showed me the routing on topo.  Maybe they changed it before construction?


Hi Tom, I know the routing was changed about 4-5 times before construction, a lot of that involving moving the location of the practice facility and holes 7 and 8 I believe.  If you're ever in Philadelphia and want to check it out, let me know!
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2018, 01:51:23 PM »


Overall I think Rod did an excellent job of providing lots of variety, even if its not really walkable, but I don't think anyone could have fixed that.


The walkability was also a factor in my turning down the job, now that you mention it.  I never say never, but I've yet to build a course that isn't walkable.


But I could make a good case Sagebrush is far more walkable on a typical 65 degree day over Stone Eagle on a typical 105 degree day.  ;D


P.S.  I don't think Sagebrush is in the league of say Sanctuary in the unwalkable department, but no doubt you would be pretty tired after 18.

Matt Bosela

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2018, 04:02:41 PM »

I had a nice chat today with Richard Zokol by phone - on occasion, he checks out this site and this topic was an interesting one for him.  He agrees with those of us on here that proposed Sagebrush as fitting the criteria set out in the original post.


He also asked that I pass along a couple of details regarding the development of Sagebrush, just for the sake of clarity and to ensure everything that's been written here about the course is factual.


In Dick's own words:

Tom Doak wrote, …“but my recollection is that Jim was more positive about the site, but not so sure the client would give us creative space, and l looked at the map and felt it would be nearly 18 side-hill holes.  So we passed.”  Tom’s recollection on Sagebrush is very different from what actually happened.

As the client, it never got the point of discussing “creative space” with Urbina.

I first reached out to Ben Crenshaw; I wanted Coore/Crenshaw to design Sagebrush.  Ben passed, as their plate was full, and before even looking at the land, Ben instantly recommended Rod Whitman.  Ben’s recommendation was significant (see letter attached).

At the same time, I also reached out to Tom Doak, who does remarkable work too.  Tom had Jim Urbina come up for a site visit.  Jim was fantastic and after he spent the day walking the land, Jim quickly came up with a rough routing.  Before Urbina departed, I informed Jim that Whitman was also a strong candidate for the job based on Crenshaw’s recommendation.  Jim had nothing but nice things to say about Whitman.

Whitman came in for a site visit.  When Rod first saw the property, he asked if we had access to more land.  We were able to find additional land that became holes 12 & 13.  After Rod’s site visit, I decided to go with Whitman.

Shortly after Urbina called me back inquiring about if Renaissance had a shot at getting the job.  In that call, I informed Jim that we decided to go with Rod.


I still remain hopeful that Sagebrush gets back on track (through new ownership) and reopens again someday.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 04:06:39 PM by Matt Bosela »

Steve Wilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2018, 02:17:23 AM »
Painswick.  And I'm not entirely kidding.  To craft 18 playable holes out of that terrain was no mean achievement.  It may not be a "great" course, but it is certainly routed over "difficult" terrain.



Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2018, 05:52:29 AM »
Painswick.  And I'm not entirely kidding.  To craft 18 playable holes out of that terrain was no mean achievement.  It may not be a "great" course, but it is certainly routed over "difficult" terrain.


Steve


I lean to your way of thinking.  On these big sites over tough terrain the "walk" is often a distraction from the game even if it can be done....and very few of these designs are a great anyway.  On far smaller sites the walk is much more managed on difficult terrain because the courses are far shorter.  Again, there aren't many of these designs which are great, but at least a vast majority of people can walk them and there will often be unusual holes.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2018, 12:41:20 PM »
Long time reader, first-time poster. Property under control for a new course. 175 acres +/- of workable land. Soil conditions are good. 1/3 of the property is flat another 1/3 rolling and another 1/3 very steep. Looking for the group's thoughts on the best courses built on a challenging property similar to that described above. Specifically, one that plays in and around steep hillsides and over a gorge (which we'd like to use as a feature throughout the course) would be helpful. Thanks.




Kapalua Plantation and www.instagram.com/eldesafiogolf/ have all the elements you mentioned.


With respect to the latter, steep mountain terrain on front 9, with gorges in play on #1, #2, #3.




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