[Jamie Benoit]

Long time reader, first-time poster. Property under control for a new course. 175 acres +/- of workable land. Soil conditions are good. 1/3 of the property is flat another 1/3 rolling and another 1/3 very steep. Looking for the group's thoughts on the best courses built on a challenging property similar to that described above. Specifically, one that plays in and around steep hillsides and over a gorge (which we'd like to use as a feature throughout the course) would be helpful. Thanks.

[Kalen Braley]

Post a topo map of the property and hold a contest...thats been popular here in the past! 

[Tom_Doak]

The closest courses I can think of are Pasatiempo and Brancepeth Castle, but neither of them really has the "rolling" middle ground.  The former is pretty tilted throughout, while the latter is fairly flat except around the ravine.


Rock Creek Cattle Company has all of the elements though I don't know that you would call the Creek a gorge.

[Ira Fishman]

I am not sure that any of it qualifies as "flat" but Primland has rolling, steep, and multiple gorges.  Red Sky (Norman) has some of the elements. 


Ira

[Jason Topp]

Ballyhack might be worth reviewing:

http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/ballyhack/


Northland might fit but is not as good an example as Pasatiempo.


Sand Hollow has the gorge but not the steepness. 

[Pete_Pittock]

Sagebrush certainly fits the bill.

[Kalen Braley]

I'll second on Sagebrush...

And add Sanctuary...

P.S.  There's a bunch of courses in Utah that do this, but wouldn't but them in the best category 

[Steve_Lovett]

What do you consider very steep? What's the elevation change across the property?


 

[Joe Hancock]

Greywalls.

[mike_beene]

Although it is a combination of two courses( 9 holes Ross and 9 holes Trent Jones) Broadmoor West course goes from flat to very steep( much steeper than East)

[Rob Rigg]

Kapalua Plantation?
Steep, rolling, ups, downs, flats, ravines, more ravines, whale sightings, sounds like a match!
Final product was fun, fun, fun and super memorable (although essentially unwalkable without 2 cart transfers). 

[Mike Hogan]

I think Old MacDonald fit the bill.
There are all types of terrain played across and on. There are flat holes, holes that play up and over huge ridges or dunes. There are hole that play up steep slopes.
The course is routed along and around a huge dune or ridge. The 3rd, 7th, 8th, 14th, 15th and 16th holes all play over steep slopes and terrain.

[Thomas Dai]

Probably a few yee olde period rural and rustic layouts, particularly by James Braid, that are worthy of consideration.
Atb

[Rick Lane]

Lancaster CC by W Flynn. 

[Michael Felton]

The closest courses I can think of are Pasatiempo and Brancepeth Castle, but neither of them really has the "rolling" middle ground.  The former is pretty tilted throughout, while the latter is fairly flat except around the ravine.


Rock Creek Cattle Company has all of the elements though I don't know that you would call the Creek a gorge.

I was going to say Brancepeth Castle. I played there at university. I didn't expect it to be mentioned here... I agree that the rest of it is pretty flat, but it really does make good use of the ravine.

[Mike_DeVries]

Greywalls is a difficult site, with lots of elevation change, rock (surface and under at times), and wetlands.  Finding the right sequence and flow to the land makes it a very fun golf course to play every day.  Crazy granite cliff areas offset by mild land at the southern end of the property, rocky areas offset by sandy areas, a brook trout stream and a gorge with creek offer other features.


Jamie, your site sounds very interesting, with lots of factors to consider and employ in the design.  Getting the routing just right will be the key.


Good luck,
Mike[size=78%] [/size]

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike, Joe -
your mention of Greywalls reminded me of The Mines.
Not an easy site there either -- but if Joe hadn't pointed that out to me I would've never realized it.
I suppose that's a real testament to the quality of the work/routing.
Maybe if we walk off a course and say "the architect did great work on a difficult site" the 'work' was subtly more about the architect than the course.
Peter

[Jeff_Brauer]

Perhaps among many courses built on mountain tops in Japan and China?  Somewhere, there must be a good one.  At least, those are built on the most difficult terrain I have seen.  Probably some similar ones in Branson, MO.

[Jim Hoak]

I have often heard it said that no great course has ever been built on land with steep elevation changes.  I remember reading an article once that said the first requirement of any great course was "a gently rolling piece of land."  (I always think of Shinnecock when I picture that.)
I think the comments on this post may be proving that generalization true.  While there have been some "good" courses mentioned, I don't believe that any of them would be characterized as "great."
What course in the top 25 in the world has the most elevation change?  Are any Doak 10's on that kind of difficult land?

[Joe Zucker]

The best course I can think of on tough land is Capilano.  It's probably not "great" as Jim describes, but it is pretty good.  We've talked about it on here before how seamless the walk is in spite of traveling so far down hill on the first 8 holes. The walk back up isn't that painful. 


Are there no great courses on steep land because the uphill holes are tough to design and most golfers don't like blind shots?  Or is it because every steep course is filled with drop shot par 3s that lack much interest once you get past the view?  I'd hazard a guess that the downhill holes hold back courses because they are often one dimensional. 

[Matt Bosela]

Sagebrush certainly fits the bill.

My first thought upon reading the OP was Sagebrush as well.


I'm pretty sure there is a story behind the development of the course and the difficulty of the terrain.  If I'm not mistaken, Tom Doak sent Jim Urbina to take a look at the property on behalf of Renaissance and he came back saying, and I apologize if I'm getting this wrong - "great dramatic property...not sure you can build a golf course there though!".


Rod Whitman did a pretty remarkable job on that property, all things considered.  I loved Sagebrush...it's such a shame that financial and legal troubles have crippled the place.

[Doug Wright]

Although Sanctuary (Jim Engh) is an example of a course built on difficult--I'd say extreme--terrain, it doesn't really have the variety of terrain you're asking about. It's almost all severely uphill and (more often) severely downhill. In fact almost every Jim Engh course I've played has some difficult terrain.  Two courses nearby to Sanctuary, Castle Pines GC and Castle Pines CC (both Jack Nicklaus), as well as Bear Dance (homegrown work) are better examples of courses on varied and in some places difficult terrain. Castle Pines GC is the most well known of these courses and does the best job of using the terrain; however, each would be worth seeing if you're looking for examples.   

[Kalen Braley]

Doug,


I mentioned this because 9-12 are relatively flat compared to other parts of the course.  But agreed overall, it is a severe site with lots of shots over canyons and drops.


Agreed on Jim Enghs courses including Redlands Mesa, Lakota Canyon, and Black Rock which I've also played...lots of elevation change on all of them.

[corey miller]

Not sure what "flat" actually means but Sleepy Hollow is flatish in a few areas.  Very rolling in a few more and pretty steep for one or two holes as you approach a ravine. 

[Adam_Messix]

I am surprised no one has mentioned Pikewood National.  That had to be a difficult site, particularly the front nine.  From 5 tee to 8 green is a serious climb yet the holes are playable and fun.

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