Turf question

[Ted Sturges]

I have a turf question.  Yeamans Hall Club renovated the fairway turf to what is called Celebration Bermuda.  It looks beautiful but it definitely plays differently than the previous fairway turf at YHC, which was a mixed bag of several strands of bermuda (and the fairways played extremely firm and fast).  The difference to me is that the course does not play as firm and fast as it used to.  It seems like the ball doesn't bounce as high with a tee shot as it used to, and the roll out is much less.  The end result is the course is playing longer (I know I'm getting older and shorter but the difference seems dramatic to me).


Can anyone answer this question for me?:   Will the new Celebration Bermuda turf get more firm in the future as it matures, or is this the way it is going to be?


TS

[Anthony_Nysse]

I have a turf question.  Yeamans Hall Club renovated the fairway turf to what is called Celebration Bermuda.  When it was put in, they told the membership that it was the same turf as the fairway grass at the Ocean Course at Kiawah.  It looks beautiful but it definitely plays differently than the previous fairway turf at YHC, which was a mixed bag of several strands of bermuda (and the fairways played extremely firm and fast).  The difference to me is that the course does not play as firm and fast as it used to.  It seems like the ball doesn't bounce as high with a tee shot as it used to, and the roll out is much less.  The end result is the course is playing longer (I know I'm getting older and shorter but the difference seems dramatic to me).


Can anyone answer this question for me?:   Will the new Celebration Bermuda turf get more firm in the future as it matures, or is this the way it is going to be?


TS

Ted,
  The Ocean Course has Pasaplum turf, greens included.


Celebration tends to be firmer the first year because it has not developed any thatch. As the years go by, deep verticuting, Frazing mowing and heavy sand topdressing will allow it to play its firmest. It's a very aggressive grass that can get puffy if not managed right.

[John Emerson]

Anytime you disturb the soil profile you are essentially sofenting the ground.  I’d say give it some time and it should firm up.  The root structure is probably still not mature. You have to realize that years of traffic on the same turf can compact and firm up the ground as well.  Newly renovated loamy/silty souls take some time to firm up.  Just be patient.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anytime you disturb the soil profile you are essentially sofenting the ground.  I’d say give it some time and it should firm up.  The root structure is probably still not mature. You have to realize that years of traffic on the same turf can compact and firm up the ground as well.  Newly renovated loamy/silty souls take some time to firm up.  Just be patient.

 I cant say that I totally agree with this, especially with bermudagrass. WHy are USGA green so firm the first couple years, then? We rotovated 10" deep, brought in 3700 dump trucks of fill to raise fairways 8"-24". Our fairways were concrete the first winter, 30-40yds+ of ball roll. If the soil can percolate, fairways should be firm the first few years without trying too hard.
 

[John Emerson]

Anytime you disturb the soil profile you are essentially sofenting the ground.  I’d say give it some time and it should firm up.  The root structure is probably still not mature. You have to realize that years of traffic on the same turf can compact and firm up the ground as well.  Newly renovated loamy/silty souls take some time to firm up.  Just be patient.

 I cant say that I totally agree with this, especially with bermudagrass. WHy are USGA green so firm the first couple years, then? We rotovated 10" deep, brought in 3700 dump trucks of fill to raise fairways 8"-24". Our fairways were concrete the first winter, 30-40yds+ of ball roll. If the soil can percolate, fairways should be firm the first few years without trying too hard.
 

Anthony,
If you look closely is did not include sandy soils in my response.  I agree that new greens are like rocks because the sand compacts so easily.  If they’ve renovated the silty or laomy soils of the course firmness takes more time.  It can be sped up with tons of topdressimg of course but not every place has to ability to topdress fairways.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anytime you disturb the soil profile you are essentially sofenting the ground.  I’d say give it some time and it should firm up.  The root structure is probably still not mature. You have to realize that years of traffic on the same turf can compact and firm up the ground as well.  Newly renovated loamy/silty souls take some time to firm up.  Just be patient.

 I cant say that I totally agree with this, especially with bermudagrass. WHy are USGA green so firm the first couple years, then? We rotovated 10" deep, brought in 3700 dump trucks of fill to raise fairways 8"-24". Our fairways were concrete the first winter, 30-40yds+ of ball roll. If the soil can percolate, fairways should be firm the first few years without trying too hard.
 

Anthony,
If you look closely is did not include sandy soils in my response.  I agree that new greens are like rocks because the sand compacts so easily.  If they’ve renovated the silty or laomy soils of the course firmness takes more time.  It can be sped up with tons of topdressimg of course but not every place has to ability to topdress fairways.

John,
  I understand, but the question was about Celebration grass and specifically at Yeaman's Hall. Having played Yeamans many times and managing turf in the coastal low country, its safe to say there is a very high content of sand in the profile throughout the course.

[John Emerson]

Anytime you disturb the soil profile you are essentially sofenting the ground.  I’d say give it some time and it should firm up.  The root structure is probably still not mature. You have to realize that years of traffic on the same turf can compact and firm up the ground as well.  Newly renovated loamy/silty souls take some time to firm up.  Just be patient.

 I cant say that I totally agree with this, especially with bermudagrass. WHy are USGA green so firm the first couple years, then? We rotovated 10" deep, brought in 3700 dump trucks of fill to raise fairways 8"-24". Our fairways were concrete the first winter, 30-40yds+ of ball roll. If the soil can percolate, fairways should be firm the first few years without trying too hard.
 

John,
  I understand, but the question was about Celebration grass and specifically at Yeaman's Hall. Having played Yeamans many times and managing turf in the coastal low country, its safe to say there is a very high content of sand in the profile throughout the course.

Anthony,
Having not played YH or stuck a probe in the ground on site, it very well may be a sandy soil base.  But it is NOT safe to assume that just because it’s located somewhat close to the ocean that the soils are sandy.  This is exactly why I said what I said.  I’ve seen many clubs in this region that have nasty clay sub soils and located within 10-15 miles of the ocean.  Ocean front sites are a pretty good bet, but even small distance inland is not. 

[Steve Okula]

Anthony,
If you look closely is did not include sandy soils in my response.  I agree that new greens are like rocks because the sand compacts so easily.  If they’ve renovated the silty or laomy soils of the course firmness takes more time.  It can be sped up with tons of topdressimg of course but not every place has to ability to topdress fairways.

Sand compacts easily?

[John Emerson]

Yes, as the sand settles from gravity, watering, root growth and general mower traffic the sand pore space tightens up and becomes very firm.  There’s virtually zero thatch with new sand greens as well.  I mean that’s (thatch)what we are constantly battling in this business right?



Anthony,
If you look closely is did not include sandy soils in my response.  I agree that new greens are like rocks because the sand compacts so easily.  If they’ve renovated the silty or laomy soils of the course firmness takes more time.  It can be sped up with tons of topdressimg of course but not every place has to ability to topdress fairways.

Sand compacts easily?