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John Kavanaugh

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Where would you travel if...
« on: November 05, 2018, 02:42:31 PM »
you had never seen photos?


Private. Ballyneal Mulligan. Being that I'm not a fan of par 3 courses losing the sense of discovery makes me go bleh.


Public. Pebble Beach. I still want to go but I've seen the ocean and I've played great golf holes. The history of the course remains the only draw.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2018, 02:48:15 PM »
The only decent answer I have is that 13 years ago when I was starting to plan my first trip to Scotland, the ONE place that got on my must-play list was Cruden Bay.


And I had never seen one picture of it.


I yearned to go there solely because of what Dan King had written on the rec.sports.golf newsgroup.



Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2018, 03:13:17 PM »
I was lucky that so few pictures of The Old Course are available unless you go searching. Most every hole was a discovery for me. I remember not knowing where the Hell Bunker was located until I was walking past it. 14, my only birdie of the day. A photo tour may have cost me that little bit of enjoyment.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2018, 03:34:28 PM »
Needing a place to play early in my career, and being incredibly uninformed,
I entered the Australia PGA Tour qualifier.


At that time as a young guy, I did little research on the country, how to get around, etc


I had read the reports on the Australian Open and how Nicklaus and others loved it
I knew the tour back then was pretty solid, so I headed over, bathed in ignorance of youth.


One of the greatest eye openers in my career.  The golf courses were a wonder.  Hard, fast, and unique to anything I had played.  I grew in the greater NYC area, playing great courses, but going to Australia (and New Zealand) was like going home for me.


I loved the golf, the country and the people, and learned a lot about preparing myself for these trips as well

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2018, 03:40:15 PM »
The Sacred Nine.

Joe Hancock

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Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 03:42:23 PM »
There’s a place in The UK that I don’t know the name, haven’t seen a picture of, and haven’t met new friends there yet. That’s where I want to go.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2018, 03:45:16 PM »
There’s a place in The UK that I don’t know the name, haven’t seen a picture of, and haven’t met new friends there yet. That’s where I want to go.


Will you be taking any old friends with you?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2018, 04:06:59 PM »
A lot of the time it’s about who raves or recommends somewhere, you’re knowledge of what they appreciate and how it relates to your own values. So my “not seen any photos but.....” travel/time machine would have me heading for the likes of Waverley, NZ. If Clyde and Brian sing it’s praises that’s a good enough recommendation for me.
As for others how’s about Port Fairy, King Island Golf & Bowling(!) Club and RACV Healesville. All spoken highly of by those who’s opinion seems to line up with my preferences.
Atb


PS - proof of the pudding - Mulranny - I went there sight/photos unseen. Adored it. Would recommend it and would go back in a flash. The recommenders were spot on?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2018, 04:13:08 PM »
I'm curious where you would not go now because of the pictures you have seen.

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2018, 04:45:29 PM »
Go: North Berwick
Not go: Shadow Creek

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2018, 04:48:07 PM »
Perfect, that is probably exactly why I haven't played Shadow Creek. That and the stories of raters rifling though members lockers.

Matt Dawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2018, 04:52:43 PM »
The Sacred Nine.


Am intrigued. Why there in particular?

Jon Cavalier

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Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2018, 05:57:06 PM »
I'm curious where you would not go now because of the pictures you have seen.


I’m curious of the converse: where have you gone, or do you want to go now, largely because you saw photos?
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2018, 06:00:59 PM »
I'm curious where you would not go now because of the pictures you have seen.


I’m curious of the converse: where have you gone, or do you want to go now, largely because you saw photos?


The Alotian

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2018, 06:05:49 PM »
John:


To answer your question, I’ve been turned off to all manner of desert courses that I long wanted to play because I saw photos that killed my interest.


And to answer my own question, Eastward Ho, Cal Club and Old Town are three places that I made it a priority to visit after seeing Ran’s photos in his writeup.


Jon Cavalier
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2018, 06:11:00 PM »
I've been dealing with this question a lot, in terms of deciding where to go to complete The Confidential Guide.


I try my best to cover any interesting places that my three co-authors haven't seen, first.  And they've seen a lot!  So I am usually flying blind, apart from whatever I can tell via Google Earth.  My trip to India and Sri Lanka was particularly adventurous in that regard, I really hadn't seen photos of any of the courses we visited.


Up next:  Europe and Africa.  From the Google Earth images, it looks like there are several interesting old courses in the copper mine towns of Zambia.  I've hardly seen any photos of the courses on the Channel Isles, and I definitely want to go there.  I haven't seen pictures of Sand Valley in Poland, or any of the courses in the Czech Republic, so I'm curious to see them.


Also:  Caesarea, Israel; Sigona, Kenya; East London, South Africa.

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2018, 06:45:45 PM »
I fell in love with golf as a teenage caddy, but spent most of my adolescent years unable to play because of serious medical problems. Relatives knew I was obsessed with golf, so they’d bring me any book on the game they could find for me to read in the hospital. So it sometimes feels like I spent my youth researching and compiling lists of where to play, and the past 20 years trying to get to everywhere I’ve read about.


From Tom Doak’s original CG, I don’t think I’d seen any pics of SFGC or Swinley the first time I played them. But I knew I should jump at those opportunities when they came up because they were on the Gourmet List. Machrihanish I wanted to see because of Michael Bamburger’s book, and Rye because of Darwin’s chapter on the Presidents putter. Dan Jenkins had a character in one of his books staying at the Marine Hotel and playing Gullane and North Berwick. All of those were in my head as a teenager long before the internet. Then a little later George Peper and Darren Kilfara both wrote books about spending extended periods as Americans living in Fife. They were probably my main inspiration for longer, more adventurous solo golf trips.


EastHo was definitely the course that I visited this year based on the pictures. For next year I’d put Rock Creek in that category


And like Jon, there are a ton of courses in the desert and Florida that I knew weren’t for me just based off of a picture or two. Often those pics were of 190yd all carry par3’s over lakes with fountains!


MW

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2018, 07:01:35 PM »
Michael,


Have you seen many pictures of The Honors? Aren't you going soon? It doesn't seem to one of those much photographed courses.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2018, 07:13:17 PM »
Barney,


I'm having trouble thinking of any examples where someone did a course profile, and I thought, "I'll scratch that off my list".  If anything my bucket list went from the usuals (Tour stops, already famous spots like Monterey) to adding stuff like Bandon, North Berwick, Nebraska area, Tobacco Road, etc...!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2018, 07:40:20 PM »
I am one to use photos for help in deciding where to play.  That said, I am sure that I would have gone to Scotland without ever seeing a photo...the particular course doesn't really matter. 

I doubt I would have played Palmetto if I didn't see photos.  Love the course and the vibe...one of my absolute favourites.  Same for Leckford Old. 

There are a few courses high on my wish list in which photos are the main draw: Lawsonia, Morfontaine Valiere & Port Fairy come to mind.

I am struggling to think of courses that I wanted to see, but photos turned me off.  I guess generally I am suspicious of golf porn without being backed up by substantive photos of holes.  I don't really care about the views etc because I can get those without ever having to pay a green fee.  Unfortunately, golf photography is going more toward eye candy shots these days. That said, it puzzles me why folks would be turned off by photos when often its just a shot or two showcasing the views without giving much away about the course.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2018, 07:44:58 PM »

Watching 60 Minutes last night, I saw the reality that Garrett McNamara discovered surfing at "Nazare" only recently:


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ancient-town-with-giant-waves-nazare-portugal-with-garrett-mcnamara-60-minutes/




There is no way that 5 of the "Top 10" courses have been built yet...
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2018, 07:53:04 PM »
John,

My wife and I had the true pleasure of having dinner on Friday night and playing The Honors on Saturday morning with David Stone. Mr. Stone has spent the past 45 years as Superintendent at Holston Hills and then at The Honors. Fascinating stories of his early experiments with zoysia and fescue, bent vs bermuda in the deep South, and his 30 year relationship with the Dye family.

I had acquired a copy of the Honor's club history a few years back. It contains an illustrated hole by hole guide, so I was somewhat familiar with the course. And I'd read John Sabino's blog post from when he played it a decade ago. David pointed out the major changes from what I'd read as we played. They included a rerouting of the 10th fairway to accommodate a larger driving range about a decade ago, and a more recently redesigned 13th? green. They've also recently lost a large tree which really effected strategy on the short p4 12th.

Overall I guess the obvious comparison would be to The Golf Club in Columbus, Ohio. It's similar in that its a true parkland routing with lots of subtle Dye touches, like small round pot bunkers, but not too much of the over the top Sawgrass-like features. No bulkhead bunkers on this one. And the hole that was probably most photographed in it's early years, the par 3 14th, has had it's 140 yard long tee to green bunker replaced with nasty native grasses quite a while ago. Only hole I hated was the 16th, a fairly formulaic 185yd par3 with 100% carry over water. Overall, it is a very, very tough golf course. Greens were running 12 on Saturday, and there are dramatic slopes on many of the holes. But I'd say Dye did a pretty good job of balancing the fun with the challenging. My wife, a 36 handicap beginner, made 5 pars including a missed 2 footer for birdie on 18. The feature I was most interested in seeing based on my research was the fairway on the 7th hole that sits well below the level of the bordering lake. It turned out quite clever, if not quite as revolutionary as I expected.

My main takeaway was jealousy - Honors is miles ahead of anyone else in the Deep South for how firm and fast the course was playing even after recent rain. Mr Stone plays mostly a ground game these days, and did so quite effectively on the majority of holes. I guess it's fair to say I'm becoming more and more of a believer in the combination of zoysia fairways and bermuda greens for this part of the country. Obviously that assumes you've got someone like David to keep an eye on them. If you are a greenskeeper, architect or greens committee member contemplating agronomic changes in this part of the U.S., I now feel strongly that The Honors should be a mandatory scouting trip.

I posted a few pictures on my twitter @Bamabearcat if you are interested. I think they give at least an overall "feel"

MW

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2018, 07:58:08 PM »
Sweet. I've always wanted to play The Honors. Sounds like for good reason.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2018, 08:07:26 PM »
The Sacred Nine.


Am intrigued. Why there in particular?


The name, and the reputation... It’s not a photogenic course anyway, but it is without a doubt the best 9 hole course in the world.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 08:39:41 PM by Jaeger Kovich »

Dan Gallaway

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Re: Where would you travel if...
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2018, 08:31:10 PM »
Sentry World.  You only see one picture which is a complete turn-off.  But, “they” say it’s worth playing.  So I don’t want to see it based on the picture, but I might add it on based on the unknown.

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