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Steve_ Shaffer

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Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« on: October 24, 2018, 10:54:52 PM »

Brad Klein reviews the newly open #4:


The mark of a great golf property is that the folks who run it are never content to sit back on their laurels. They always want to improve.
Case in point: Pinehurst Resort in the Sandhills of central North Carolina. With three recent U.S. Opens that ran seamlessly well – 1999 (won by Payne Stewart), 2005 (Michael Campbell) and 2014 (Martin Kaymer, and then Michele Wie in the following U.S. Women’s Open) and another U.S. Open slated for 2024, there would be good reason to be content with its standing among the elite of American golf resorts.


https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/pinehurst-no-4-gil-hanse-open
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

PCCraig

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2018, 09:44:31 AM »
I've heard that they are already charging $350+ to play the new #4?
H.P.S.

Craig Disher

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2018, 10:58:51 AM »
I've heard that they are already charging $350+ to play the new #4?
That's a new policy if true. The only up charge for resort guests has been $195 for a round on #2. #4 was treated the same as the other courses except that it's had a full tee sheet for weeks. Perhaps $350 is the fee for a non-resort walk-up. The fee for member's guests, accompanied or unaccompanied, is very reasonable given the quality of the course.

Jake Marvin

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2018, 11:01:25 AM »
Been to Pinehurst a few times but never seen any of the Resort's courses. How does 4 compare to 2 in terms of land, design, etc., especially now?


I'd be interested to hear thoughts from anyone who's been there since the renovation. Looks very good from all the stuff Sugarloaf has put out there, but of curse they've got ties to the place.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 02:28:06 PM by Jake Marvin »

corey miller

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2018, 11:55:44 AM »



All sounds good except for the ridiculous greens fees.


Was most concerned with all the time,money,effort that was used to undo Fazio and if all the new/old stuff would get in the ground.  Glad it is more a return to 1935 than to 1998.

PCCraig

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2018, 11:57:26 AM »
Glad it is more a return to 1935 than to 1998.


It mostly looks like a 2018 Gil Hanse course to me?
H.P.S.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2018, 12:18:58 PM »
Glad it is more a return to 1935 than to 1998.


It mostly looks like a 2018 Gil Hanse course to me?


Yes the primary photo they've been using is the aerial of a green next to a pond with a bunch of sand scrapes on the other side.  was the pond next to the green in '35?


Brad's whole story line about the resort staying ahead of the curve is a bit of fiction.  I think they've been prodded into action for a combination of reasons.  I know my famous quote about #2 here a few years ago pushed them to think harder about a restoration; before that they had been all too happy to rest on their laurels.

Mark Pritchett

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2018, 12:30:15 PM »
Glad it is more a return to 1935 than to 1998.


It mostly looks like a 2018 Gil Hanse course to me?


Yes the primary photo they've been using is the aerial of a green next to a pond with a bunch of sand scrapes on the other side.  was the pond next to the green in '35?


Brad's whole story line about the resort staying ahead of the curve is a bit of fiction.  I think they've been prodded into action for a combination of reasons.  I know my famous quote about #2 here a few years ago pushed them to think harder about a restoration; before that they had been all too happy to rest on their laurels.


Thanks for getting the resort to restore No. 2.  It is one of my favorite courses. 

JC Jones

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2018, 12:34:01 PM »

Brad's whole story line about the resort staying ahead of the curve is a bit of fiction.  I think they've been prodded into action for a combination of reasons.  I know my famous quote about #2 here a few years ago pushed them to think harder about a restoration; before that they had been all too happy to rest on their laurels.


Lol
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Steve Kline

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2018, 01:16:48 PM »

Brad's whole story line about the resort staying ahead of the curve is a bit of fiction.  I think they've been prodded into action for a combination of reasons. 



Totally agree. My parents were members there growing up. So, I played at the resort from the early '90s through 2010 or so. I had been to Bandon by 2007 and Scotland/Ireland a number of times before that. Other than #2 I started to wonder why anyone would go to Pinehurst. #2 was good but I would have preferred to play at the newer resorts opening up that had better grounds games, which #2 should have had. The resort is definitely playing catch up and most likely still is.


Just think that Bandon Dunes opened in 1999 and Pinehurst redid #4 with Fazio in 2000 after the '99 Open. I played the #4 version before Fazio quite a bit. I absolutely hated the Fazio version with all the elevated greens and fairways and pot bunkers. So, the golf world started zigging to more natural golf and Pinehurst was still zagging.

Craig Disher

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2018, 01:24:03 PM »

Yes the primary photo they've been using is the aerial of a green next to a pond with a bunch of sand scrapes on the other side.  was the pond next to the green in '35?


Brad's whole story line about the resort staying ahead of the curve is a bit of fiction.  I think they've been prodded into action for a combination of reasons.  I know my famous quote about #2 here a few years ago pushed them to think harder about a restoration; before that they had been all too happy to rest on their laurels.
Do you mean Rees's course? In 1935 #4 was still the Ross plan with no real ponds on the course and a very different routing than. Up until the 50s the pond in the photo was a fairly large stream. Ross put 2 par 3s over it. The current 14th is in the same general location as the Rees hole with the lake - added in the 50s I think - on the left. The green may have been moved back a bit.

ward peyronnin

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2018, 01:33:18 PM »
I played there last week. I liked the course very much. It was a very soggy track that day and I played alone so I only have what's in my own mind to relay.

It was a fairly efficient routing although a few times one played on then doubled back to a tee such as from three to four. A lot of topography came into play in varied ways when it was available and there was a good variety of holes and direction changes. Fairly dramatic features are interspersed with holes that have to make the best of level ground so there are not really stretches of a particular feature tho I am not saying whether that is good or bad. The weak stretch came between at 10-16; all decent enough holes just two stretches at 10-12 and 15-16 which consisted mostly of very level par fours . Maybe the greens after more play would salvage my feelings abuot them but ....

The greens were Hanse style examples of movement, some really expansive, but not overly dramatically sloped or sinister
(micromounds) and were nicely squared off at least at the front corners and the green sites usually seemed to be advantageously placed in the landscape.

I think the ground game could be played there but I dared not try after two hurricane soakings and a prior nights rain. I thought the par fives exceptionaly well done, the par threes not so much although the 6th is a cracker.
Holes of Note:
No. 2 a beautifully laid out five with a lateral right ridge and cross bunkering dictating play to a good small raised greenNo. 5 brawny 460 yd four only made playable for us mortals when firm conditions allow us to capture the downslope of a ridgetopNo 6 200 yd 3 over a deep hollow to a narrow and deep mesa top greenNo 7 a simple 4 that features a very visual lo broken ridge line guarding the direct tee ball to the preferred second shotNo 9  another sporty par five with a PV hell cross bunker and small perched greensite
N0 15 a cape style 5 that when challenging the water and making sure of the carry places the 3 shot back down hill to a green sloping to the waterNo 17 a lovely five with a direct ground flow very reminescent of links holes in the dunes at County Down or Aberdeen
No 18 Tough finish featuring a couple broken ridge lines again
When I compare no 4 to courses I really really like I am not sure it is there but then again I am of the heretics who consider no 2 a very fine course but decline to worship at its feet. Thanks for the opportunity to write this up as I need to rate this track and I do try to shadow a write up to focus my takeaway generally so I serve to masters here.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2018, 03:24:42 PM »

Yes the primary photo they've been using is the aerial of a green next to a pond with a bunch of sand scrapes on the other side.  was the pond next to the green in '35?


Do you mean Rees's course? In 1935 #4 was still the Ross plan with no real ponds on the course and a very different routing than. Up until the 50s the pond in the photo was a fairly large stream. Ross put 2 par 3s over it. The current 14th is in the same general location as the Rees hole with the lake - added in the 50s I think - on the left. The green may have been moved back a bit.


Craig:


I didn't know the full history of the course, even though I played it back before Rees did his work.  [I don't think I ever saw his version, actually.  I walked the Fazio version a few years ago.]  I was just agreeing with PCraig that a green next to a pond did not remind me so much of 1935, as corey miller had just suggested.  [Neither do the colored wood chips in that picture.]




PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2018, 07:15:54 PM »

Yes the primary photo they've been using is the aerial of a green next to a pond with a bunch of sand scrapes on the other side.  was the pond next to the green in '35?


Do you mean Rees's course? In 1935 #4 was still the Ross plan with no real ponds on the course and a very different routing than. Up until the 50s the pond in the photo was a fairly large stream. Ross put 2 par 3s over it. The current 14th is in the same general location as the Rees hole with the lake - added in the 50s I think - on the left. The green may have been moved back a bit.


Craig:


I didn't know the full history of the course, even though I played it back before Rees did his work.  [I don't think I ever saw his version, actually.  I walked the Fazio version a few years ago.]  I was just agreeing with PCraig that a green next to a pond did not remind me so much of 1935, as corey miller had just suggested.  [Neither do the colored wood chips in that picture.]


The new #4 looks like a fun course, it just looks like a new Hanse course built in the sand hills not necessarily a Ross course.


It sounds like Pinehurst has a history of riding trends. Ripping out Rees/Fazio junk is a trend I can get behind?
H.P.S.

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2018, 09:10:04 PM »
The evolution of #4 is somewhat of a mystery after WWII. Most of the people I've talked to who plaed the pre-Fazio course thought they were playing the Ross original. They weren't. They were playing the last iteration of Rees Jones' work. I believe Rees brought the lake into play by stringing the 13th and 14th holes along its bank. Hanse kept them with few changes - although I like his improvements to 14, better visuals, longer and a more interesting green. But make no mistake, #4 is a Gil Hanse course. Shadows of the Rees/Fazio course are there but it is a completely fresh take on the property.

Brian Ross

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2018, 04:09:07 PM »
The evolution of #4 is somewhat of a mystery after WWII. Most of the people I've talked to who plaed the pre-Fazio course thought they were playing the Ross original. They weren't. They were playing the last iteration of Rees Jones' work. I believe Rees brought the lake into play by stringing the 13th and 14th holes along its bank. Hanse kept them with few changes - although I like his improvements to 14, better visuals, longer and a more interesting green. But make no mistake, #4 is a Gil Hanse course. Shadows of the Rees/Fazio course are there but it is a completely fresh take on the property.


The following is a CliffsNotes version of the evolution of Pinehurst #4 in the 1950s-60s:


Robert Trent Jones was brought in in 1950 and he created a new nine hole course that utilized the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 16th, 17th, and 18th Hole corridors of the original Donald Ross #4. The first four holes utilized the same routing as Ross, with the first two holes (a par 4 and par 3) playing down what is now the par 4 first hole. The third and fourth holes of this course played through the same corridors as what is now Holes #2 and #3 of the Hanse course. A new 85 yard par 3 was created to serve as the 5th hole that played generally from today's 15th Tee toward the fairway in the same direction it plays today. The 6th Tee then played from there to the current 16th Green. RTJ took Ross's original par 5 17th hole and created two par fours out of it, the 7th and 8th Holes, playing west along Morganton Road. The 9th hole of the RTJ course was today's 18th.


In 1953, #4 was again expanded to 18 holes by Richard Tufts, but the portions of the original Ross routing that were taken out of play in 1950 were not used for the expansion. Instead, the new back nine was comprised mostly of holes from what was then the front nine of Course #3 and what is today Course #5. The 10th Hole was a par 3 that played generally from what is now the 7th Green to the 6th Green of The Cradle. 11-18 were across Beulah Hills Rd. 11-13 played through the same corridors that was then Holes 2-4 of #3 and is now Holes 2-4 on #5. The 14th played from behind that green to what is today the 14th green of #5. The 15th was in the exact location as Hole 15 on #5 today. The 16th was a par 4 that played to the west through what is now homes and condos to a green that was located somewhere near the present Hole 17 tees on #5. The 17th and 18th, then, played down the same corridors as what was then Holes 8 and 9 of #3 and what is today Holes 17 and 18 of #5. This, of course, disrupted the original #3 routing, so Tufts also built nine new holes for #3 at that time.


In the late 50s-1960, Tufts decided to expand the resort to five courses, so the 5th course was built in 1960. However, it wasn't built as one contiguous eighteen, but instead as two separate nine-hole additions to Courses 3 and 4. There is disagreement between the Tufts and Maples families over who designed the first nine; some say Ellis Maples did, others say Tufts designed it and Maples constructed it, but it comprised what is now Holes 5-13 on #5. Course #4 was also re-configured at this time, with the second new nine, designed by Richard Tufts and his son Peter, on generally the same land as Holes 5-15 of the original Ross course, though with considerable changes to the routing. The creek on the original course had been dammed by 1959 (and possibly earlier), though it was smaller at that time than it is now. The expansion to its current size appeared to happen sometime between 1960 and 1978.


The routing of the new #4, then, played along Holes 1-3 of the Ross/RTJ course, before veering off at Hole 4. The fourth hole of the Tufts course played north through the same corridor as Hanse's new 5th hole. Hole 5 played north-east from what is now the 6th tee of the Hanse course to somewhere in the vicinity of where the 11th tee is now. Hole 6 was a par 3 that played from there west to the present 7th green. Holes 7-9 of the Tufts course played generally in the same direction as the new Holes 8-10 today. Hole 10 was much more of a dogleg that it is today, though it does play to generally the same location as today's 11th green. Hole 11 was in generally the same location as the 12th hole today, playing along the north side of the lake to a somewhat peninsula green. Hole 12 was a par 3 that played from today's 13th tee to a green near, but behind, today's 4th green. At that point, the course picked up the RTJ course again, with Holes 13-18 playing what was (from 1950-1961) Holes 4-9.


I could probably go on all day about the further revisions to the course by Jones/Fazio as I love exploring this kind of stuff, but that's probably enough detail for now. Much of this info was extrapolated from some really cool aerial images/routing diagrams in Richard Mandell's book The Legendary Evolution of Pinehurst, which you really should read if you have any interest in how golf came to be here in the Sandhills.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 05:14:07 PM by Brian Ross »
Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Derek_Duncan

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2018, 10:38:23 AM »


I could probably go on all day about the further revisions to the course by Jones/Fazio as I love exploring this kind of stuff, but that's probably enough detail for now. Much of this info was extrapolated from some really cool aerial images/routing diagrams in Richard Mandell's book The Legendary Evolution of Pinehurst, which you really should read if you have any interest in how golf came to be here in the Sandhills.


Good stuff Brian. Can you get Richard to send me a copy of "The Legendary Evolution of Pinehurst"  ;) ;) ? Have you seen what it's going for on the secondary market?  :o
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 11:38:23 AM by Derek_Duncan »
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2018, 11:18:41 AM »
Brian is right about Richard Mandell's book. It is a masterpiece of historical research and beautifully presented. Brian's description is easier to follow if you're looking at Richard's aerial renderings. I'm still uncertain how the holes around the lake came about. Whenever the lake appeared - sometime during the 1950s - Ross's original holes which began after the current #3 were lost for good and couldn't be restored. Apparently the Tufts family had a hand in the holes around the lake which were later reconfigured by Rees Jones. I don't know why the lake was created - perhaps as another reservoir for the course - but it disrupted some very good golfing ground. That's what I was referring to when I said the evolution of the course was a mystery after WWII. Until the lake was created, it would have been possible to go back to Ross's original routing when 3 and 5 were finalized across the road and a new 18-hole 4 was created.

Philip Hensley

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2018, 09:46:20 PM »
A good time to also read the history of #4, by Chris Buie


http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/buie-chris-a-history-of-pinehurst-4/

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2018, 10:34:48 AM »
Luckily the only thing that matters is what is on the ground today and that is a well thought out course that is a blast to play.  No. 4 is should be on everyone's must play list when visiting Pinehurst.  Gil and his associates delivered big time!

Bill Brightly

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2018, 12:13:30 AM »
Luckily the only thing that matters is what is on the ground today and that is a well thought out course that is a blast to play.  No. 4 is should be on everyone's must play list when visiting Pinehurst.  Gil and his associates delivered big time!


Mark is 100% right. I just got back and LOVED #4. #2 kicked my ass and reminded me that I'm not as good as I think I am. #4 looks and plays like a lot #2, but is just a "more  playable" version, if that makes sense.


Funny aside: we went with 7 guys from my club and a few wanted to play #2 from the Blues. I encouraged them all not to do that... two insisted. The starter gave them a hard time, and finally our club pro had to tell him he was a professional.

Edward Glidewell

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2018, 11:19:08 PM »
I'm playing #4 on Wednesday. Anything in particular I should be looking for? Unique features, lines to take, etc.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2018, 08:01:18 AM »
I'm playing #4 on Wednesday. Anything in particular I should be looking for? Unique features, lines to take, etc.
Edward,

Schedule your day if possible to include playing The Cradle, especially if you are with golf buddies.  It's worth the time (about an hour) and the money ($50, not including beer, which I highly recommend).
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Edward Glidewell

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2018, 07:58:47 PM »
I'd love to play the Cradle, but won't be able to this time -- driving down for the day from Greensboro (will be in town for Thanksgiving) and our tee time is just after noon. Couldn't be there early enough to do it before the round, and won't be enough daylight after we're done.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Pinehurst #4, Hanse " Retrovation"
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2019, 11:57:01 PM »
bringing this back with the US Amateur being played this week.

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