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Erik J. Barzeski

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Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« on: October 20, 2018, 11:15:34 PM »
I'm still on my side of the "distance" debate, but I wondered if anyone had a list of great courses that are no longer able to be played by the PGA Tour primarily because they're too short.

This means the courses should be considered good or great. The courses should be former PGA Tour courses that are no longer used (i.e. if you think they ruined a course by adding length to it, that doesn't count). The courses should be unused now primarily because of the distance they play, not because of infrastructure problems, lack of a sponsor, etc.

Ideally the course hosted more than a few PGA Tour events and was not just a one-off type thing.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2018, 12:36:47 AM »
That's a tough criteria. If we can include major championship courses, maybe Cherry Hills? But maybe there are logistical issues there too.


I went through Golf Digest's Top 200 and didn't find any others that seemed to fit.


Edit: They had a playoff event at Cherry Hills in 2014 and the winner was -14, so I guess they can still play there.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 12:37:07 PM by Matt_Cohn »

Scott Warren

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2018, 12:37:34 AM »
(i.e. if you think they ruined a course by adding length to it, that doesn't count)


Seems to me a course that got sigificantly lengthened or redesigned to stay Tour-able should be in the same boat as one that couldn’t or wouldn’t join the arms race and got left behind by the Tour.


In terms of technlogy’s impact on great classic architecture on Tour, the result is the same.


The answer to your very specific, well-qualified question might be “only Cypress Point”. But I’m not sure what the point of the very specific, well-qualified question is because we all know technology’s impact on classic architecture at the Tour level is much more significant than that.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2018, 12:41:52 AM »
Well there aren't many great courses that are regular PGA TOUR sites, to begin with.  So it's kind of a trick question.


But the problem isn't the courses they play on TOUR.  The problem is all the other courses that get changed because architects and club members watch golf on TV on the weekends.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2018, 06:58:55 AM »
Erik,


Flip your question around and take a look at the Golfweek Classic 100. How many have the length to host a tour event?


Ira

Rich Goodale

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2018, 09:53:42 AM »
This is slightly OT, but given the fact that top level amateurs can smash the ball as well as most pros, I'm amazed that the 2025 Walker Cup Match will be played at Cypress.  Bags without drivers and with 4-5 wedges will be the norm, unless they somehow find another 500-1000 yards to add to the course and/or roll back the ball.


Circa 2010 I was Competition convener at Aberdour and happened to be up in Dornoch during the Scottish Amateur and walked about with two + HCP players from AGC (ages 19 and 21), and they hardly pulled their drivers out of their bags.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2018, 10:11:38 AM »
I play with a ton of golfers who don't pull drivers when I do. It makes me happy, not sad.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2018, 10:21:31 AM »
I play with a ton of golfers who don't pull drivers when I do. It makes me happy, not sad.


John


As you and I know the watermelon metal driver is the life blood of the old fat fart.  If I could bring myself to do it, playing driver/driver on every par 4s and 5s and maybe on a few of the par 3s, I could shoot in the high 70s, but it would be no fun......


Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2018, 12:53:25 PM »
There are other problems besides length. I have a non-resident membership at Sedgefield. It may not be a "great" course but it is a venerable old Ross that has hosted the Greensboro/Wyndham for decades. The pin placements the TOUR uses make the rounds the TOUR play birdie fests. We have some more difficult pin placements for member play.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

BHoover

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2018, 01:00:22 PM »
Interlachen

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2018, 01:53:54 PM »
Seems to me a course that got sigificantly lengthened or redesigned to stay Tour-able should be in the same boat as one that couldn’t or wouldn’t join the arms race and got left behind by the Tour.
Okay, how about we list those with an asterisk or something? But the course had to be at least "good" to begin with - a crappy course that was lengthened and remained crappy doesn't really count.

Well there aren't many great courses that are regular PGA TOUR sites, to begin with.  So it's kind of a trick question.

You see, when I started this topic, I was trying to play devil's advocate with myself. It's a common thing, at least it seems to me, for people to bemoan all the great courses the PGA Tour can no longer play because of the distance the players hit the ball. Would I generally prefer to see the players play at great courses over crappy courses? Yes (then again I'm also not a "typical golf fan").

But… it might turn out that this statement, when made, is a bit of a false statement. If the PGA Tour hasn't had to stop playing a lot of great classic courses - then this argument doesn't hold as much water as some people seem to think it does. The PGA Tour (and top-level pro golf) is still played at some pretty old courses here in the U.S. (despite the fact that the game isn't particularly old here), and yes, they've been lengthened, which is why I think we should list those too if they've been ruined in their lengthening.

And my intent is not at all to create yet another distance debate topic, but to actually create a list of courses that are no longer playable (or ruined), as is so often cited.

But the problem isn't the courses they play on TOUR. The problem is all the other courses that get changed because architects and club members watch golf on TV on the weekends.
That may be your argument, but it's not the one I see cited widely, or the reason I started this topic.


Flip your question around and take a look at the Golfweek Classic 100. How many have the length to host a tour event?

I'd rather not, because I don't think it's important. As I've said a few times, 6500 yards is more than enough for the vast, vast, vast majority of golfers. And given Tom's comment… those clubs should be hailed for their resistance, lest they lengthen and ruin what they've got.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Eric LeFante

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2018, 02:09:21 PM »
They used to play Cypress in the Crosby so Cypress should be on the list.


They played Plainfield twice in recent years and made the course look like a pitch and putt. They aren’t going back to Plainfield with the new schedule.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 02:11:12 PM by Eric LeFante »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2018, 02:18:20 PM »
So right now the list is:
  • Interlachen
  • Cypress Point
(I'm not sure Cypress Point would want to host a PGA Tour event, but still… but that's not what I asked.  ;D )
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Eric LeFante

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2018, 02:29:58 PM »
Myopia and Chicago hosted several US opens way back when so I would add them.


Newport CC and Garden City hosted the Open also. Newport had the women’s open and one of Tiger’s US Ams.


Bobby Jones won his first Open at Inwood.


Jack won a US am at The Broadmoor. They had the senior open this year.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2018, 04:29:38 PM »
That's a tough criteria. If we can include major championship courses, maybe Cherry Hills? But maybe there are logistical issues there too.

I went through Golf Digest's Top 200 and didn't find any others that seemed to fit.

Edit: They had a playoff event at Cherry Hills in 2014 and the winner was -14, so I guess they can still play there.


What about Olympic?


The Pacific Coast Amateur was this year and the winner shot 12 under. 


Most players on that level only use driver on a few holes.


The USGA has abandoned it for the US Open. They will hold a Women's open and the PGA has committed to a Ryder Cup which will be a match play event.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2018, 04:38:07 PM »
My beloved Olympia Fields might fit into this category. Regrettably. Unless the PGA comes back.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

MLevesque

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2018, 06:59:26 PM »
Myopia Hunt Club
I am Skew!

Rich Goodale

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2018, 07:20:54 PM »
So right now the list is:
  • Interlachen
  • Cypress Point
(I'm not sure Cypress Point would want to host a PGA Tour event, but still… but that's not what I asked.  ;D )
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2018, 07:22:26 PM »
Well there aren't many great courses that are regular PGA TOUR sites, to begin with.  So it's kind of a trick question.



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2018, 07:29:09 PM »
Yes, as MLevesque suggests above, a quick scan of courses that hosted the US Open from circa 1900 to c 1930 shows a goodly number of then-highly regarded and top flight courses that dropped off the map with the shift from hickory to steel -- courses that never again served as 'models' (for non-championship, local courses). Augusta, and dozens of now nearly forgotten but once highly regarded host-courses for the PGA Championship and the Western Open etc, built/coming into their own during the steel shaft era, all stayed virtually unchanged -- lengthwise -- until the introduction of titanium and multi-core golf balls; and again, almost all save Augusta dropped off the map as pro-level tests and as models for recreational courses -- with Augusta staying 'relevant' only because it added 5-times more length in the next ten years than it had in the previous sixty years combined.
Which is to say: maybe technological change is the only constant in golf, but there can be no doubt about the costs and casualties involved when it comes to gca -- neither in the past nor in the future, nor of course as we speak.
Or, to answer Erik's question from another angle: there are *no* 'great courses' that the PGA can no longer play, but only because those dozens of once-great courses are no longer *considered* 'great'.
Peter
 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 07:53:42 PM by Peter Pallotta »

David McIntosh

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2018, 07:58:35 PM »

What about Olympic?

The Pacific Coast Amateur was this year and the winner shot 12 under. 

Most players on that level only use driver on a few holes.

The USGA has abandoned it for the US Open. They will hold a Women's open and the PGA has committed to a Ryder Cup which will be a match play event.

Joel,

The PGA is also being held at Olympic in 2028, part of the deal when they switched across from the USGA I understand. The Ryder Cup will be held there in 2032.

Not knowing the course well, other than what I can remember from viewing US Opens on TV, I wonder if even fewer drivers will be used there at the PGA in 10 years’ time?

Ira Fishman

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2018, 08:35:24 PM »
Scioto, Canterbury, Beverly, Westchester. Is there some magic number that is enough to make the point that distance has made very good courses obsolete for tour players? Maybe I am still missing the point of the thread.


Ira

Eric LeFante

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2018, 08:35:29 PM »
I think Seminole can be added to the list. It never had a tour event but Hogan used to practice there to prepare for the Masters. Today top pros don’t practice there to prepare for the Masters.

Michael Pelliccione

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Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2018, 08:40:59 PM »
Was told by the head pro at CPC that the course will not be lengthened for the upcoming Walker Cup.   The rough and pin locations will make it challenging enough.   CPC doesn’t want to do what ANGC did because of Tiger..

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Courses the PGA Tour Can No Longer Play
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2018, 11:08:50 PM »
Yes, as MLevesque suggests above, a quick scan of courses that hosted the US Open from circa 1900 to c 1930 shows a goodly number of then-highly regarded and top flight courses that dropped off the map with the shift from hickory to steel -- courses that never again served as 'models' (for non-championship, local courses).
Yes, I probably should have said post-hickory era courses only (i.e. hosted a PGA Tour event after the early '30s).

Scioto, Canterbury, Beverly, Westchester. Is there some magic number that is enough to make the point that distance has made very good courses obsolete for tour players? Maybe I am still missing the point of the thread.
I thought the point was pretty clear. People often seem to say "we're losing so many great courses to the distance explosion." This thread seeks to evaluate the merit of those statements by listing these great, lost courses.

So, what's the list (starting in the early '30s) at now? Can we put the date of the last PGA Tour (or equivalent) level event hosted at the course? (Interlachen might not count, as nobody's asking for a roll-back to hickories. Well, not many people are.)


I think Seminole can be added to the list. It never had a tour event but Hogan used to practice there to prepare for the Masters. Today top pros don’t practice there to prepare for the Masters.
No, it can't.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 11:16:00 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

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