[Tom_Doak]

I just got back from hosting members of the private clubs we've built at Ballyneal, for the second Doak Cup.


On the afternoon of the first round, nearly everyone went out to play the Mulligan.  I played in a fivesome with two 15-handicap ladies, and two other men, one of them a low handicapper and one about like me. 


I've never played a round of golf where there was so much laughing or exhiliration.  Many of the greens are in bowls, and there were a huge number of shots that looked like they might go in for an ace, most of them off a backboard or sideboard:  it happened at the 1st hole [2x], the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th [3x], the 8th [3x], and the 10th [3x].  It probably happened at the 6th and 7th, too, since we had shots within five feet at each, but we couldn't see the bottom of the flag from the tee.


This is not to say that every one of the holes is easy, or set in a bowl.  If you miss the green left at the 1st, short at the 10th, or anywhere at the 9th, you might have trouble finishing the hole.  Meanwhile, the greens at the 2nd and 3rd and 6th are some of the most subtle we have built.  The course seems to strike a very good balance.


If every town had a course like the Mulligan, golf would be 10x as popular as it is.  But I honestly don't know if I could build anything half that good on a blank piece of ground.  What makes the Mulligan so special is that it's a great little piece of dunesland, and we never would have come up with greens like the 5th or 7th if they weren't mostly laying there.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom, even the question itself might be anathema to you, but:

Now that you *have* come up with greens like the 5th and 7th, would you ever consider re-creating them on said 'blank piece of ground'?

Remember that thread from years and years ago, on the differences between naturalism and minimalism? Why not start moving tons of earth at this stage in your career?

I mean, you and your team can embody/make manifest a natural aesthetic, while at the same time creating something good (and popular) on poor sites.   

I'm more of a stick in the mud when it comes to golf courses: 18 holes with a very large number of Par 4s is the kind of course for me. But, over and over and from so many different folks I keeping hearing about how fun these shorter/par 3 courses are -- and, selfishly, I'm thinking that any course/any kind of course that makes golf more popular in general will be good for me in particular, in the long run.   

After all, what's the big deal about minimalism, anyway? 

Peter

[Stephen Davis]

Tom,


I agree wholeheartedly with everything you posted. The Mulligan Course is fantastic and I have yet to have a guest there that wasn't completely thrilled with it. It is such a wonderful place to spend an hour or two. In fact, time seems to not matter when you are in there, as we found out when my friends nearly missed their flight home because we were having so much fun in there. I love the balance of the subtle holes and the boldness of the wild greens. It is a wonderful place to just drop a few balls down a pitch and chip around too.


The biggest compliment I can give it is when I took two of my boys for a dad/son trip there, they wanted to spend all of our time in there and specifically at the 5th green. We probably spent 3-4 hours in there over two days. When we had to leave to go home, they cried (they are little) because they didn't want to leave. You are correct, if every town had a course like that, the game would definitely be in a better place. Thank you for the wonderful work you and your crew did there. I am honored to be a member.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, even the question itself might be anathema to you, but:

Now that you *have* come up with greens like the 5th and 7th, would you ever consider re-creating them on said 'blank piece of ground'?

Remember that thread from years and years ago, on the differences between naturalism and minimalism? Why not start moving tons of earth at this stage in your career?

I mean, you and your team can embody/make manifest a natural aesthetic, while at the same time creating something good (and popular) on poor sites.   

I'm more of a stick in the mud when it comes to golf courses: 18 holes with a very large number of Par 4s is the kind of course for me. But, over and over and from so many different folks I keeping hearing about how fun these shorter/par 3 courses are -- and, selfishly, I'm thinking that any course/any kind of course that makes golf more popular in general will be good for me in particular, in the long run.   

After all, what's the big deal about minimalism, anyway? 

Peter

Peter:


Interestingly, today I was trying to visualize moving a very big chunk of earth for a little project we are looking at close to home.  It's not the sort of thing I would have considered ten or twenty years ago.


But I don't always feel the need to be bound by minimalism.  There are some sites where it just won't work - either you couldn't build a course because it was too severe, or it would likely be boring because it was too flat.  Usually, I'm happy just to let other designers take on projects like that, but it doesn't mean I would never try one myself.


In this case the land is REALLY severe and moving some earth like that is about the only way you can build the project.  But I don't have much taste for the opposite - i.e., moving a lot of earth on a flat site to make it wild and woolly like the Mulligan.  That would just feel completely unnatural, not to mention unoriginal.  So maybe I am more of a naturalist than a minimalist.  Or maybe I just don't like to be typecast !

[Jim Hoak]

I guess that raises the obvious question--Since golf is a game, why shouldn't it be fun?

[Edward Glidewell]

I haven't personally played it, but the description of those greens sounds a lot like what others have told me about the Jim Engh designed Creek Club at Reynolds Plantation.

[John Kirk]

I guess that raises the obvious question--Since golf is a game, why shouldn't it be fun?

and...should golf courses be primarily evaluated by the amount of positive emotion they evoke?

So happy to hear our "primary songwriter" had a great time.

[Scott Szabo]

It's been a wonderful addition to the club.  My kids don't play a lot of golf, but we go out when we are able and the Mulligan is the perfect setting. 

[JC Jones]

Do y’all have a google alert that lets you know if Ballyneal isn’t on the front page of GCA?


#sellsellsell

[David Davis]

Tom,


Personal bias aside, is it the best (or even most fun) 9 hole course you have ever seen?


It's nice to hear you are satisfied with your work there and how people experience the course. I'm sure that provides a lot of gratification.

[Tom_Doak]

Personal bias aside, is it the best (or even most fun) 9 hole course you have ever seen?

It's twelve par-3 holes.  And I think it's in the conversation with Bandon Preserve and the Sandbox at Sand Valley.  Maybe not better than them, but probably more fun, especially for 10+ handicap players.


The best nine hole, shorter course I've seen is the Valliere at Morfontaine- you could think of the Mulligan as the par-3 equivalent of that.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Tom,
Is it possible, assuming the land allows, to make some of the holes at the new SV course from “150yards and in” like the Mulligan?
Cheers,
Ian

[John Cowden]

Mr. JC  J,

Tell us, how we’ll do you know Ballyneal?  And what is your real objection to the course so many find a wonderful example of much of what this site enjoys?  Please.  Inquiring minds....

[Ross Harmon]

Agree with all the good thoughts here. The Mulligan course has gone from an "if we have time" to a "can't miss" for my guests and family. There's so much excitement around each corner. Last month a guest of mine had an ace on 10 and last weekend my 8 year old son had a near-ace playing from 12 green to 5 green. That moment really put the twinkle in his eye - he's solidly hooked on the place!

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
Is it possible, assuming the land allows, to make some of the holes at the new SV course from “150yards and in” like the Mulligan?
Cheers,
Ian

Ian:


It might be possible, but I don't think that's what the client is looking for.


Coincidentally, I laid out the Mulligan and a second par-3 course for Bandon Dunes [which is now unlikely to get built] at about the same time.  When I was working on the layout in Bandon, I understood that I'd have to keep the greens more traditional and understated because that's the client's preference; so when we started the Mulligan, I told my team we should take that opportunity to build some of the things that Mr. Keiser wouldn't want us to build.  And that was the inspiration for greens like #4, #5 and #7.


I'm not saying one is better than the other ... both have their place.  Thankfully, different clients have different preferences, so my courses don't all turn out the same. 


But I don't think Mr. Keiser would be happy something like the Mulligan [though I do wish he would go and try it for himself].  In fact, Mike just emailed me a week ago to report how much he had liked Morfontaine, and suggested it as another reference point for the new course at Sand Valley.  But when I asked him if he had played the Valliere course there, which I referenced earlier in this thread, he was not nearly as enthusiastic about it as I am.  Which was not a surprise to me.   

[David Davis]

Personal bias aside, is it the best (or even most fun) 9 hole course you have ever seen?

It's twelve par-3 holes.  And I think it's in the conversation with Bandon Preserve and the Sandbox at Sand Valley.  Maybe not better than them, but probably more fun, especially for 10+ handicap players.


The best nine hole, shorter course I've seen is the Valliere at Morfontaine- you could think of the Mulligan as the par-3 equivalent of that.

Tom,


Thnaks, I was at Ballyneal again last year at the end of the summer and played the Mulligan so I have been back to play it. Had a blast and I'd agree with what you wrote about the Valliere course, however, I found Mulligan really fun too.


I've mentioned this before but our caddy for the day aced the second hole with a crazy pin position that was kind of on the slope. Definitely not an easy ace position.

[MClutterbuck]

Tom, even the question itself might be anathema to you, but:

Now that you *have* come up with greens like the 5th and 7th, would you ever consider re-creating them on said 'blank piece of ground'?

Remember that thread from years and years ago, on the differences between naturalism and minimalism? Why not start moving tons of earth at this stage in your career?

I mean, you and your team can embody/make manifest a natural aesthetic, while at the same time creating something good (and popular) on poor sites.   

I'm more of a stick in the mud when it comes to golf courses: 18 holes with a very large number of Par 4s is the kind of course for me. But, over and over and from so many different folks I keeping hearing about how fun these shorter/par 3 courses are -- and, selfishly, I'm thinking that any course/any kind of course that makes golf more popular in general will be good for me in particular, in the long run.   

After all, what's the big deal about minimalism, anyway? 

Peter

  But I don't have much taste for the opposite - i.e., moving a lot of earth on a flat site to make it wild and woolly like the Mulligan. 

Tom,


I know the Streamsong is unlike the Mulligan terrain, but have you not in fact created a fantastic course on a flat piece of land that was reshaped from flat not by you but by others? Why not do it yourself?


M

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

I know the Streamsong is unlike the Mulligan terrain, but have you not in fact created a fantastic course on a flat piece of land that was reshaped from flat not by you but by others? Why not do it yourself?

Well, if you want to think in those terms, perhaps all the Earth's land was flat before "geology" so all golf courses are created.   


I'm not saying it's impossible to create a fun course from flat terrain, just that it's a lot harder than people make it out to be.  For me, it's harder to create something cool with fill dirt than by cutting things away.  On a flat site you usually need to create with fill.


However, I'm headed to Houston tomorrow, and I think I've got a site where I can cut to create my interest.  We will have to wait and see.

[MClutterbuck]

Tom,

I know the Streamsong is unlike the Mulligan terrain, but have you not in fact created a fantastic course on a flat piece of land that was reshaped from flat not by you but by others? Why not do it yourself?

Well, if you want to think in those terms, perhaps all the Earth's land was flat before "geology" so all golf courses are created.   


I'm not saying it's impossible to create a fun course from flat terrain, just that it's a lot harder than people make it out to be.  For me, it's harder to create something cool with fill dirt than by cutting things away.  On a flat site you usually need to create with fill.


However, I'm headed to Houston tomorrow, and I think I've got a site where I can cut to create my interest.  We will have to wait and see.

Hope there is some Jockey Club influence!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Do y’all have a google alert that lets you know if Ballyneal isn’t on the front page of GCA?


#sellsellsell

Well, if you consider that to be a fair question, I would then ask: Do you have a Google alert that prompts you of opportunities to add no value with shallow snarkiness..?..

[JC Jones]

Mr. JC  J,

Tell us, how we’ll do you know Ballyneal?  And what is your real objection to the course so many find a wonderful example of much of what this site enjoys?  Please.  Inquiring minds....

I have no problem with Ballyneal.  I’ve not played the course but those friends of mine who have say it is great.  The pictures look awesome, I am sure the owner and staff are wonderful people and I’ve heard the course has overcome the conditioning issues that plagued it for so many years.  I have no doubt I’d find it enjoyable and interesting.


But let’s be honest here, what exactly was the “update” we got in this thread?  That Tom Doak thinks his own course is genius and if every town had a course like his, golf would be 10x more popular?  And that a handful of Ballyneal members agree with him?  Those aren’t revelations to anyone who has been on here for any substantial amount of time.


At the very least, the Ballyneal mafia should have the decency to bump one of the prior 1000 threads they’ve started rather than starting a new one every few weeks to give us their “update” that they’ve just returned from their course and they still think it’s the most bestest ever.

[Scott Warren]

JC Jones: Forum Police.


Give it a rest, champ. You’re becoming a hell of a common denominator in most of the negative that goes on at this website lately.


The DG has obviously become tiresome to you. When that happens to most others they just take a break for a while. Maybe give it a shot.

[JC Jones]

JC Jones: Forum Police.


Give it a rest, champ. You’re becoming a hell of a common denominator in most of the negative that goes on at this website lately.


The DG has obviously become tiresome to you. When that happens to most others they just take a break for a while. Maybe give it a shot.

The rich irony of Scott Warren calling someone else forum police.

[jeffwarne]

But when I asked him if he had played the Valliere course there, which I referenced earlier in this thread, he was not nearly as enthusiastic about it as I am.  Which was not a surprise to me.   

wow....
I'm running though the 9 holes in my head and can't think of 1 (OK #9)on that nine that was less memorable than the rest of the 18 hole course.
I also think the tag "short" is very misleading unless one commonly plays the back tees when they play(a small % of golfers).
Sure both par 5's are "short" by modern standards, but one has an intriguing layup decision off the tee-making it long, and the other has an all world green and greensite and if labeled a par "4" might be considered one of the greatest par 4's in golf.

[John Foley]

Tom - have seen the Cradle? Just wondering your thoughts.


It's interesting with the success i wonder if places like Streamsong, Erin Hills and other resorts are thinking about adding this option.

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