Today at Dormie Club

[Steve Sayre]

      Played Dormie Club today in spectacular summer-like conditions. We were informed that we were one of twelve groups on the Monday tee sheet. The green fee was $175.
 
I know this C&C layout is highly regarded by the majority of you, and my opinion, inexpert as it is, follows suit. There has been lots of favorable Dormie commentary on this site and for good reasons.
 
But there are a few curious things going on, at least IMO. Here are three.
 
No bunker rakes. Not one anywhere on the course.  OK, C&C, according to the very polite and friendly PGA pro manning the shop, have designated everything waste areas.  Is that true? If true, isn’t it still weird not to have rakes for bunkers that are unambiguously greenside, including the small Dye-like pot bunkers that appear here and there?  If you teed off at noon on a “crowded” day, would you want to miss a green by five feet and hit a bunker recovery shot from a footprint or worse?  Even if you don’t “have to” rake, wouldn’t you want the option as a courtesy to those following? I think Pine Valley and Whistling Straits have waste area rakes, correct?
 
There are many (too many) areas on, and many areas just off, the fairways that clearly need to be marked as ground under repair.  It is not particularly labor intensive to make this happen.  It is unfair to competitive golfers playing by the rules not to so mark. There are also, if anyone cares, many areas outside the lines of play that are badly in need of some basic maintenance work, which seems to be an ongoing, perennial problem. They absolutely detract from the beauty of the course.
 
The brush/bush/high grass/native crap hazards: Why is there no demarcation, either yellow or red stakes?  Again, the pro told us the architects do not want to have staked hazards.  Call me a rube, but I think it’s ridiculous. There were several occasions when one of us hit into these death zones. What then? Lost ball rule, of course. If you didn’t know it was lost until you advanced and searched, then return 200 yards to the spot or tee and try again. Not friendly, not fun. We were advised after the round that regulars make their own local rule and treat these areas as lateral hazards with imaginary red stakes. Say what?
 
There are a couple more things that bothered me, but enough whining.  It was a fun day and I hope the Dormie Network guys can pull if off financially. I am skeptical in the current no-growth golf environment, avery competitive Pinehurst golf scene, the abundance of affordable housing more convenient than the West End location, etc. The course obviously deserves an enthusiastic and robust membership. But the plans to become a successful but strictly private golf and residential enterprise? I think that’s a tough challenge.
 
 
 
 
 

[Anthony_Nysse]

      Played Dormie Club today in spectacular summer-like conditions. We were informed that we were one of twelve groups on the Monday tee sheet. The green fee was $175.
 
I know this C&C layout is highly regarded by the majority of you, and my opinion, inexpert as it is, follows suit. There has been lots of favorable Dormie commentary on this site and for good reasons.
 
But there are a few curious things going on, at least IMO. Here are three.
 
No bunker rakes. Not one anywhere on the course.  OK, C&C, according to the very polite and friendly PGA pro manning the shop, have designated everything waste areas.  Is that true? If true, isn’t it still weird not to have rakes for bunkers that are unambiguously greenside, including the small Dye-like pot bunkers that appear here and there?  If you teed off at noon on a “crowded” day, would you want to miss a green by five feet and hit a bunker recovery shot from a footprint or worse?  Even if you don’t “have to” rake, wouldn’t you want the option as a courtesy to those following? I think Pine Valley and Whistling Straits have waste area rakes, correct?
 
There are many (too many) areas on, and many areas just off, the fairways that clearly need to be marked as ground under repair.  It is not particularly labor intensive to make this happen.  It is unfair to competitive golfers playing by the rules not to so mark. There are also, if anyone cares, many areas outside the lines of play that are badly in need of some basic maintenance work, which seems to be an ongoing, perennial problem. They absolutely detract from the beauty of the course.
 
The brush/bush/high grass/native crap hazards: Why is there no demarcation, either yellow or red stakes?  Again, the pro told us the architects do not want to have staked hazards.  Call me a rube, but I think it’s ridiculous. There were several occasions when one of us hit into these death zones. What then? Lost ball rule, of course. If you didn’t know it was lost until you advanced and searched, then return 200 yards to the spot or tee and try again. Not friendly, not fun. We were advised after the round that regulars make their own local rule and treat these areas as lateral hazards with imaginary red stakes. Say what?
 
There are a couple more things that bothered me, but enough whining.  It was a fun day and I hope the Dormie Network guys can pull if off financially. I am skeptical in the current no-growth golf environment, avery competitive Pinehurst golf scene, the abundance of affordable housing more convenient than the West End location, etc. The course obviously deserves an enthusiastic and robust membership. But the plans to become a successful but strictly private golf and residential enterprise? I think that’s a tough challenge.
 
 
 
 
 

I cannot wait to read some of the replies from the Treehouse.....

[astavrides]

Yeah, you'll probably get flamed for this post, but let me make the first real reply somewhat supportive.
I haven't been to Dormie in 5 years, so I don't remember specifically, but I agree with you about rakes. Someone is bound to reply that bunkers are supposed to be hazards, but I think that's crap. Bunkers are challenging enough already, even with a good rake job. Being in a footprint, or very poorly raked lie, always pisses me off.

[Kyle Harris]

Yeah, you'll probably get flamed for this post, but let me make the first real reply somewhat supportive.
I haven't been to Dormie in 5 years, so I don't remember specifically, but I agree with you about rakes. Someone is bound to reply that bunkers are supposed to be hazards, but I think that's crap. Bunkers are challenging enough already, even with a good rake job. Being in a footprint, or very poorly raked lie, always pisses me off.

Hitting it into a bunker usually pisses me off enough to ameliorate any further anger found therein.

[Carl Rogers]

Playing a few more times, Dormie may rub off on you a bit more positively.

When the 2019 rules kick in the stroke & distance, lost ball problem will disappear.


I have played Dormie half a dozen times or so, really really like it except the 3 par 5's.


I actually prefer the bare unmaintained areas off the closely mowed areas to 5 inch rough.  A recovery shot from those areas is possible.  For the inconsistent golfer, approach shots at Dormie must be played strategically.  Pay carefull attantion to the roll of the terrain.  Putt when can when off the green.  Do not go long or miss short side side.  If between clubs, play short and count on some roll.


Even with new management & on site housing and more expanded food service, I do wonder how the course can generate enough play or national memberships to keep it going.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have played quite a few C & C courses and I don't remember any course that did not have rakes for the bunkers.  I believe at DC this was due to a lack of funds to finish the course/bunkers combined with a limited maintenance budget but I may be wrong about this.

[Philip Hensley]

Does Tobacco Road have rakes?

[Jay Mickle]

Does Tobacco Road have rakes?

No, but they have a local rule that allows you to lift your ball smooth out a spot and place your ball. This is in large part due to the expansive waste bunkers that also in places serve as cart paths.
I have no problem with the concept of giving yourself a reasonable lie in a bunker in non competition rounds. It speeds up play and eliminates complaining. For the average golfer just being in a bunker is difficult enough regardless of the lie.
Pine Needles, Mid Pines, #2 and other courses also have all sand play as waste areas. Rakes are provided to encourage golfers to smooth out hoof prints (as resort courses, many don't).

[Steve Kline]

Just played both courses at Sand Valley. I bring this up because both courses play all the sand as waste areas, like Dormie Club, but have rakes for all of the areas. Even though rakes were nearby, there were numerous spots where not only did people not rake they did not even bother to smooth out there footprints. I'd say 80% of the time I hit in the sand off the tee I was in a footprint. All I could do was hack it out because of the lie and not the lip of the bunker. Around the greens people generally raked. But, in the case of Sand Valley (both courses) the fairways are so wide I can't really complain about a crappy lie when you miss one.

[Kyle Harris]

Let's stop this "waste area" nonsense. It's an invented term made to make you, the poor golfer, feel better about being in sand.


There are "bunkers," which are played under a certain set of rules; and there is "through the green," played under a similar but critically different set.


Hit the ball. Move on. It wasn't the bad lie that caused your problem.

[John Foley]

Hit the ball. Move on. It wasn't the bad lie that caused your problem.

Amen to that!!!


I was at Dormie a few weeks ago and saw the plans for the cottages and new clubhouse. I also know that C&C have been / will be doing some more work though exactly what, I do not know. Love the place but not sure how this works as a private course and part of the network. Maybe they don't need a full tee sheet if they get the total # of networked member.  I just think over time less people will be playing the course that play it today and not sure that is a sustainable business model.

[Paul Elam]

      Played Dormie Club today in spectacular summer-like conditions. We were informed that we were one of twelve groups on the Monday tee sheet. The green fee was $175.
 
I know this C&C layout is highly regarded by the majority of you, and my opinion, inexpert as it is, follows suit. There has been lots of favorable Dormie commentary on this site and for good reasons.
 
But there are a few curious things going on, at least IMO. Here are three.
 
No bunker rakes. Not one anywhere on the course.  OK, C&C, according to the very polite and friendly PGA pro manning the shop, have designated everything waste areas.  Is that true? If true, isn’t it still weird not to have rakes for bunkers that are unambiguously greenside, including the small Dye-like pot bunkers that appear here and there?  If you teed off at noon on a “crowded” day, would you want to miss a green by five feet and hit a bunker recovery shot from a footprint or worse?  Even if you don’t “have to” rake, wouldn’t you want the option as a courtesy to those following? I think Pine Valley and Whistling Straits have waste area rakes, correct?
 
There are many (too many) areas on, and many areas just off, the fairways that clearly need to be marked as ground under repair.  It is not particularly labor intensive to make this happen.  It is unfair to competitive golfers playing by the rules not to so mark. There are also, if anyone cares, many areas outside the lines of play that are badly in need of some basic maintenance work, which seems to be an ongoing, perennial problem. They absolutely detract from the beauty of the course.
 
The brush/bush/high grass/native crap hazards: Why is there no demarcation, either yellow or red stakes?  Again, the pro told us the architects do not want to have staked hazards.  Call me a rube, but I think it’s ridiculous. There were several occasions when one of us hit into these death zones. What then? Lost ball rule, of course. If you didn’t know it was lost until you advanced and searched, then return 200 yards to the spot or tee and try again. Not friendly, not fun. We were advised after the round that regulars make their own local rule and treat these areas as lateral hazards with imaginary red stakes. Say what?
 
There are a couple more things that bothered me, but enough whining.  It was a fun day and I hope the Dormie Network guys can pull if off financially. I am skeptical in the current no-growth golf environment, avery competitive Pinehurst golf scene, the abundance of affordable housing more convenient than the West End location, etc. The course obviously deserves an enthusiastic and robust membership. But the plans to become a successful but strictly private golf and residential enterprise? I think that’s a tough challenge.
 
 
 
 
 

You make good points, but I would say that all three of your issues (first two at least) are ancillary and a result of the previous owners running out of money or not having a decent maintenance budget.  New ownership is addressing many of the issues, but it will take time.  And the brutal winter/spring + hurricane Florence haven't helped.  I would guess that 2020 Dormie will look very different than 2018 Dormie. 


I actually think Dormie works better in the National club model.  With the West End location, it was never going to effectively compete with CCNC and Forest Creek "country club" residential models. But it could work well having limited local membership and corporate/national members who pay dues to support it and in exchange get a less crowded, exclusive feel when they travel there every once in a while.     

[Michael Whitaker]

Dormie Club purchased a “cover wrap” of the last issue of GolfWeek magazine. That’s a very over-the-top ad buy (at least the Southeast distribution).

I’d say they are serious about trying to reach critical mass with their membership model.

[JC Jones]

Dormie Club purchased a “cover wrap” of the last issue of GolfWeek magazine. That’s a very over-the-top ad buy (at least the Southeast distribution).

I’d say they are serious about trying to reach critical mass with their membership model.

I’m curious to see how this goes.  Dormie always had potential despite the shortcomings of the middle of the course.  I understand the new ownership group to be quite good and all reports are they are making Ballyhack even better (something which I had not thought possible).

[Ryan Taylor]

Dormie Club purchased a “cover wrap” of the last issue of GolfWeek magazine. That’s a very over-the-top ad buy (at least the Southeast distribution).

I’d say they are serious about trying to reach critical mass with their membership model.

I received the cover wrap on my last issue of GW in Michigan! With the addition of Victoria National, the national membership is starting to garner my attention. I wonder if they make a play for a distressed course in between Detroit and Chicago? Black Forest at Wilderness Valley went up for auction a few weeks back. See below link. I don't have an update on the outcome of the auction.

https://www.petoskeynews.com/gaylord/featured-ght/top-gallery/black-forest-wilderness-valley-up-for-auction/article_622a86a9-b8b7-522b-80ed-3b4db45bc4a9.html

[Tom Fagerli]

      Played Dormie Club today in spectacular summer-like conditions. We were informed that we were one of twelve groups on the Monday tee sheet. The green fee was $175.
 
I know this C&C layout is highly regarded by the majority of you, and my opinion, inexpert as it is, follows suit. There has been lots of favorable Dormie commentary on this site and for good reasons.
 
But there are a few curious things going on, at least IMO. Here are three.
 
No bunker rakes. Not one anywhere on the course.  OK, C&C, according to the very polite and friendly PGA pro manning the shop, have designated everything waste areas.  Is that true? If true, isn’t it still weird not to have rakes for bunkers that are unambiguously greenside, including the small Dye-like pot bunkers that appear here and there?  If you teed off at noon on a “crowded” day, would you want to miss a green by five feet and hit a bunker recovery shot from a footprint or worse?  Even if you don’t “have to” rake, wouldn’t you want the option as a courtesy to those following? I think Pine Valley and Whistling Straits have waste area rakes, correct?
 
There are many (too many) areas on, and many areas just off, the fairways that clearly need to be marked as ground under repair.  It is not particularly labor intensive to make this happen.  It is unfair to competitive golfers playing by the rules not to so mark. There are also, if anyone cares, many areas outside the lines of play that are badly in need of some basic maintenance work, which seems to be an ongoing, perennial problem. They absolutely detract from the beauty of the course.
 
The brush/bush/high grass/native crap hazards: Why is there no demarcation, either yellow or red stakes?  Again, the pro told us the architects do not want to have staked hazards.  Call me a rube, but I think it’s ridiculous. There were several occasions when one of us hit into these death zones. What then? Lost ball rule, of course. If you didn’t know it was lost until you advanced and searched, then return 200 yards to the spot or tee and try again. Not friendly, not fun. We were advised after the round that regulars make their own local rule and treat these areas as lateral hazards with imaginary red stakes. Say what?
 
There are a couple more things that bothered me, but enough whining.  It was a fun day and I hope the Dormie Network guys can pull if off financially. I am skeptical in the current no-growth golf environment, avery competitive Pinehurst golf scene, the abundance of affordable housing more convenient than the West End location, etc. The course obviously deserves an enthusiastic and robust membership. But the plans to become a successful but strictly private golf and residential enterprise? I think that’s a tough challenge.
 
 
 
 
 

You make good points, but I would say that all three of your issues (first two at least) are ancillary and a result of the previous owners running out of money or not having a decent maintenance budget.  New ownership is addressing many of the issues, but it will take time.  And the brutal winter/spring + hurricane Florence haven't helped.  I would guess that 2020 Dormie will look very different than 2018 Dormie. 


I actually think Dormie works better in the National club model.  With the West End location, it was never going to effectively compete with CCNC and Forest Creek "country club" residential models. But it could work well having limited local membership and corporate/national members who pay dues to support it and in exchange get a less crowded, exclusive feel when they travel there every once in a while.   

The Forest Creek model isn't doing too well either!

[Jerry Kluger]

I think the problem Dormie has is the many years it has been operated on a shoestring.  Promises of a clubhouse and cottages, etc. as well as improvements to the course are viewed by some with a bit of skepticism so until this is completed not many people are going to put up any substantial amount of money to be a member of Dormie.  Personally, I would like to see significant improvements to the course before any construction of a clubhouse or cottages. I love the course and if they can bring it up to the standards of the other C & C courses both public and private that I have played then it would be something I would consider.  Forest Creek in Pinehurst has a really good clubhouse, etc. and 2 Fazio courses but it couldn't make a go of it so I understand Fazio himself came in and bought it.  Forest Creek insisted that members own a building lot which turned off quite a few people, including our leader, which they eventually made into a small amount of money but still didn't make it.

[jim_lewis]

Jerry:


Your comments about Forest Creek are a little misleading. Forest Creek is doing fine. It is true that for the first 20 years of its existence, prospective members (except for founders and charter members) were required to own property. More that 500 memberships were sold on that basis until the property ownership requirement was dropped.  A small group of original investors in the club became over-extended, so the club was offered to members who chose to voluntarily purchase the club.  About half the members chose to invest. That financial model was not sustainable, so three individuals including Fazio and two long-term members of the club have purchased it. They have the necessary resources (money) and commitment to sustain the club at a high level. In fact, they have already invested heavily in course improvements and are committed to future investments. Rumors of Forest Creek's demise are unfounded. It remains one of the finest private clubs in the South with two excellent courses and a high quality national membership. The current ownership model is an ideal arrangement and financially superior to that of the original developers.

[John Mayhugh]

Let's stop this "waste area" nonsense. It's an invented term made to make you, the poor golfer, feel better about being in sand.

There are "bunkers," which are played under a certain set of rules; and there is "through the green," played under a similar but critically different set.

Hit the ball. Move on. It wasn't the bad lie that caused your problem.

Aren't you a ray of sunshine in this discussion?

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: Sorry if you found my comments misleading.  My point was that there are other clubs besides Dormie in the area such as Forest Creek that already have a clubhouse, etc, as well as having courses that were fully completed and well maintained.  This just makes it much more difficult for Dormie to succeed.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jim: Sorry if you found my comments misleading.  My point was that there are other clubs besides Dormie in the area such as Forest Creek that already have a clubhouse, etc, as well as having courses that were fully completed and well maintained.  This just makes it much more difficult for Dormie to succeed.

The attraction to Dormie is more than just the club itself. There is a collection of fine clubs You are a full member. Ballyhack is just two hours up the road.

[Kyle Harris]

Let's stop this "waste area" nonsense. It's an invented term made to make you, the poor golfer, feel better about being in sand.

There are "bunkers," which are played under a certain set of rules; and there is "through the green," played under a similar but critically different set.

Hit the ball. Move on. It wasn't the bad lie that caused your problem.

Aren't you a ray of sunshine in this discussion?

I thought we were all here to play golf.


It's amazing how fun it can be when you actually try.

[Nick Ribeiro]

I was at Dormie earlier this year and can not remember if there were rakes in the bunkers or not. As far as markings on the course go I much prefer paint over stakes but also can't remember if they had either.


What I do remember is they had drainage issues and the conditions needed help but I pretty much over looked this stuff as it was just acquired by Dormie and they had already been addressing many of the maintenance issues. Bill Coore was there the same day I was walking the property with some guys from The Dormie Network.


As far as the success of the club I am a believer. As I have said in previous threads, I visited Ballyhack about a month after Dormie Network had purchased it and it was a great course but it was also a bit tired. I've been back a few times since and the change is remarkable. They removed a ton of trees, cleared brush, hired a new super, hired a new GM, and the entire club has changed. Because of their model the club is attracting members and usage, most likely just not anymore on a local level than before? I do not know this for sure but assume the new influx in membership and use comes from the national model.


Dormie Club I am certain will follow the same path and I am anxious to get back at some point. As the network acquires more properties and continues to sink necessary capital into these great places that have been neglected, I think the outcome will be a success. The network already has me wondering constantly, which property is next? Im surprised others are still skeptical..


Disclaimer - I am NOT a Dormie Network member or affiliated with the Network, just a fan. Not trying to get blasted here.

[Rob Hallford]

Any word on plans there to switch to Champion/Bermuda greens?  In my mind, that is the key to getting that course firm and fast, as I agree that changes to the course are more important than building cottages/clubhouse.  Would shutting down for a summer kill any momentum around membership, though?  BTW, I love the experience at Ballyhack, but in Pinehurst I'd almost rather stay in town. 

[JC Jones]

Any word on plans there to switch to Champion/Bermuda greens?  In my mind, that is the key to getting that course firm and fast, as I agree that changes to the course are more important than building cottages/clubhouse.  Would shutting down for a summer kill any momentum around membership, though?  BTW, I love the experience at Ballyhack, but in Pinehurst I'd almost rather stay in town.

That is the biggest hurdle to me.  I go to Pinehurst a few times a year and being in the village is an integral part of the experience for me.  I did recently stay at MidPines and it was nice to have the courses outside my door but I did miss being in the heart of it.