[Kalen Braley]

Erik,


I get the charm/different from everyone else component.  But specifically what would golf would lose if the PGA Tour had its own rules?


P.S.  I understand ball manufacturers would have to adapt if the PGATour implemented their own Tour ball, but its not like golfers will stop buying good balls because their favorite pro doesn't use them.

[Steve Kline]

Wouldn't Norman's great driving ability been neutralized by modern equipment? I thought that was part of the point of the video and comments above.


It also makes Tiger's dominance even more staggering as equipment was helping guys to keep up with him.

[Tom_Doak]

Wouldn't Norman's great driving ability been neutralized by modern equipment? I thought that was part of the point of the video and comments above.


It also makes Tiger's dominance even more staggering as equipment was helping guys to keep up with him.

Yes!  Norman fell off the radar right as the new drivers took over.  Driving was the strength of his game ... not hitting iron shots under pressure like Scott Norwood.


I don't think driving has ever been the real strength of Tiger's game - certainly not in recent years anyway!  So equalizing the driver might actually have helped him vs the field.

[Kalen Braley]

Wouldn't Norman's great driving ability been neutralized by modern equipment? I thought that was part of the point of the video and comments above.


It also makes Tiger's dominance even more staggering as equipment was helping guys to keep up with him.

Yes!  Norman fell off the radar right as the new drivers took over.  Driving was the strength of his game ... not hitting iron shots under pressure like Scott Norwood.


I don't think driving has ever been the real strength of Tiger's game - certainly not in recent years anyway!  So equalizing the driver might actually have helped him vs the field.

Tom,

I'm not so sure that was really the cause.   Greg had his last two wins on the PGA Tour when he was 42 in 1997.

Jack only had 3 wins at age 42 and older.
Arnie only had 1 win at 42 and older.
Trevino - 1
Crenshaw - 2
Watson - 2
Floyd - 4
Player -3
Even Phil M only has 3

[JESII]

Peter,


Norman is widely regarded as one of the premier drivers of the ball in the history of golf...that was my point.  The fact that he hit it so straight while swinging so hard is the skill nobody could match until these modern drivers and balls took side spin out of the game.

[jeffwarne]

For clarification...his numbers were from Trackman, and all based on calculations off launch conditions, correct? Maybe I'm an idiot, but Trackman doesn't factor in cold, wet etc...when it's giving carry/roll/total yardages, does it?  In theory if he turned around and hit with the wind the numbers would have been the same?

Jim,
Trackman is measuring the actual flight of the ball when used outdoors, so yes temperature wind humidity will affect the numbers.
It can also be set on a "normalized" setting to negate those factors and it will calculate the distance based on launch,ballspeed, spin, AOA etc.

[JESII]

Seriously? It’s actually tracking the ball in flight? I guess if they’re charging $15,000 it must be incredible.

[Steve Kline]

Wouldn't Norman's great driving ability been neutralized by modern equipment? I thought that was part of the point of the video and comments above.


It also makes Tiger's dominance even more staggering as equipment was helping guys to keep up with him.

Yes!  Norman fell off the radar right as the new drivers took over.  Driving was the strength of his game ... not hitting iron shots under pressure like Scott Norwood.


I don't think driving has ever been the real strength of Tiger's game - certainly not in recent years anyway!  So equalizing the driver might actually have helped him vs the field.

Agree with you on the driver for Tiger in general. But, at first he was using older driver technology - steel shaft, shorter, heavier - if I remember correctly. Plus, others took advantage of hybrids and other long iron technology well before Tiger did.

[Jerry Kluger]

What is the incentive for the PGA Tour to adopt its own rules with regard to equipment?

[Jon Wiggett]

Shots are getting longer whether it is the ball, the club or both. The simplest, quickest and cheapest solution is to reduce the distance the ball flies.

I don't think it demonstrates that too well. If the difference is 10 yards, because the balls are degraded, is that worth all the fuss? 15? 20, over the last 30+ years, with almost all of that coming from the ability to swing the driver faster because it's lighter, longer, and has a bigger clubface? Everyone's going to have a different line, and unfortunately, we can't have a "new" dozen Titleist Professionals or Tour Balatas to try out. Or a "new" 1900 Pinnacle or Top-Flite.

You don't think it demonstrates what exactly? I am somewhat confused because my point was it did not matter where the extra distance came from. Please explain what relevance your post has to the quote you chose to use   

[Brian Walshe]

The Tour is already bifurcated. Anyone on here can happily use U shaped grooves and I still love my Eye 2 + wedges.  You cannot use U shaped grooves on Tour.  Likewise I can change the brand and style of ball as many times as I like in a round.  Try doing that on Tour.  Of course what doesn't come out in the final numbers of that video is what the miss rate was with the old driver.  By all means let these magnificent athletes with fantastic diets who are just plain better thrash away with a persimmon driver.  All the Trackman data is likely to do is help them find the ball 3 fairways away. We have de-skilled the game and made it all about power.  When faced with the same dilemma baseball and tennis made changes to ensure technology didn't make it only about power. 


Imagine baseball with oversized titanium bats where every hit was a home run.  It would be boring to watch because the exceptional, a home run, would be the norm.  Rules were changed to ensure that didn't happen.  I take it post banning all but wooden bats in Major League Baseball that everyone stopped playing and no one watched any more?

[Bryan Izatt]

Jim,


Look at this site if you want to see what Trackman tracks.  They do/can track the complete flight of the ball and many other things.  Isn't technology great?  I saw First Man on the weekend and it reminded me of how much technology has advanced since the late '60's when I was an aspiring rocket scientist in university.


https://trackmangolf.com/what-we-track


As far as the results of the test, some thoughts come to mind re the differences of new ball/new club vs old ball/old club:


Lucas lost 4.6% of his clubhead speed with the persimmon driver - not surprising since it was heavier and shorter shafted.


He lost 6.7% on ball speed - again not surprising since the clubhead speed was less and the cor of the driver/ball collision has no doubt improved over the years.  Also the old balls have no doubt lost compression over the years.  What is surprising is how little the difference is.


He lost 14.8% on carry distance - not surprising since old balls dehydrate and lose weight over time.  Lighter balls don't go as far.  Perhaps the dimple patterns on new balls are a bit better than the older balls improving the aerodynamics. 


He lost 16.7% in overall distance - perhaps the extra distance loss on the ground results from the higher retained spin when the ball hits the ground.  Or, perhaps the descent angle is steeper with the older balls.


Keep in mind he was optimized for his modern driver and ball.  He was definitely not optimized for the old club/old ball.


It's surprising to me that the numbers are as close as they are.  But, that's consistent with other similar tests I've seen and tests I've tried myself.


It all suggests that there are many factors that have accounted for the distance gains of Tour quality players of the past 18-20 years.  I agree with Jon that the simplest solution, if you want to roll back distance for elite players, is to restrict the ball, although it may not even be the biggest culprit in the distance gains.  But that isn't going to happen. (But, I should never say never ).


   

[Mike_Clayton]

What was interesting was as Lucas struggled with the wood I told him to imagine hitting the tee shot he would hit if he needed a par to win a tournament.
He got to the 18th hole in Portugal a week later needing a birdie to tie - after Tom Lewis made it from 50 feet for par on 17 - and drove it 25 yards into the lake on the left.
It's hard to be too critical though - he started the year with no status on the European Tour and after playing 15 tournaments (about) he's 38th on the money list.

[Thomas Dai]

I liked the remark about Swampy Marsh knocking it 220 down the fairway with a bit of roll and then hitting a 4-iron into the green. Took me back. Tour players on TV hitting 4-irons into greens! Wow, rarity these days!
Chuckled as well at the closing comment about the R&A and USGA taking no notice!
Here's an article in the UK's National Club Golfer on a similar subject -
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/baker-lane-chapman-oldcorn-wolstenholme-golf-technology/

atb

[Tom_Doak]

What was interesting was as Lucas struggled with the wood I told him to imagine hitting the tee shot he would hit if he needed a par to win a tournament.
He got to the 18th hole in Portugal a week later needing a birdie to tie - after Tom Lewis made it from 50 feet for par on 17 - and drove it 25 yards into the lake on the left.
It's hard to be too critical though - he started the year with no status on the European Tour and after playing 15 tournaments (about) he's 38th on the money list.

Mike, can you clarify how they computed the "averages" for his drives with the old persimmon club?  It seemed like they threw out the bad hooks and averaged his solid ones and they were still that far behind.  What was a bad drive like for distance and direction?

[Tom_Doak]

Of course what doesn't come out in the final numbers of that video is what the miss rate was with the old driver.  By all means let these magnificent athletes with fantastic diets who are just plain better thrash away with a persimmon driver.  All the Trackman data is likely to do is help them find the ball 3 fairways away. We have de-skilled the game and made it all about power.  When faced with the same dilemma baseball and tennis made changes to ensure technology didn't make it only about power. 


Imagine baseball with oversized titanium bats where every hit was a home run.  It would be boring to watch because the exceptional, a home run, would be the norm.  Rules were changed to ensure that didn't happen.  I take it post banning all but wooden bats in Major League Baseball that everyone stopped playing and no one watched any more?

I suppose it's impossible to go back to persimmon because everyone under 40 would have to totally re-learn how to play, and possibly some of them would be unable to cope.


Wouldn't it be great if there was a Persimmon Open once a year for enough money that it attracted the Tour players?  I think I'd bet on Langer or Irwin or Tom Watson against most of the young guns.

[JMEvensky]

I suppose it's impossible to go back to persimmon because everyone under 40 would have to totally re-learn how to play, and possibly some of them would be unable to cope.



Wouldn't it be great if there was a Persimmon Open once a year for enough money that it attracted the Tour players?  I think I'd bet on Langer or Irwin or Tom Watson against most of the young guns.

Point taken but I think I'd fade that bet all day--Langer, Irwin,and Watson were great drivers but elite players can adapt pretty quickly. And those 3 would eventually have to putt.


Seems like a reasonable compromise would be allowing the distance gains of the new ball but requiring a perfect strike to get them. If the new drivers had the same distance loss for off-center hits as persimmon drivers did, maybe there'd be less bomb/gouge. Risk/reward is something PGAT players figure out pretty quickly.

[Thomas Dai]

I suppose it's impossible to go back to persimmon because everyone under 40 would have to totally re-learn how to play, and possibly some of them would be unable to cope.
Wouldn't it be great if there was a Persimmon Open once a year for enough money that it attracted the Tour players?  I think I'd bet on Langer or Irwin or Tom Watson against most of the young guns.

Point taken but I think I'd fade that bet all day--Langer, Irwin,and Watson were great drivers but elite players can adapt pretty quickly. And those 3 would eventually have to putt.
Seems like a reasonable compromise would be allowing the distance gains of the new ball but requiring a perfect strike to get them. If the new drivers had the same distance loss for off-center hits as persimmon drivers did, maybe there'd be less bomb/gouge. Risk/reward is something PGAT players figure out pretty quickly.

A Persimmon Open for TV pros etc would be great, especially if played on a shorter length classic, golden era or older course.
An equipment compromise position of older generation clubs with the modern generation ball (for 'stay-in-shape' durability) also has merit.
I imagine that there are some folks posting herein who have never hit a persimmon* headed club with a steel shaft. There are plenty of inexpensive ones on eBay. Buy one and give it a go.....remove from your bag your modern metalDriver and fairway metals/hybrids and use wooden woods instead. Go on, I dare you!
atb


* For those not in the know, persimmon isn't, as some may think, a term used to describe any wood used to make golf clubheads, it's a specific type. Other types were used as well. And there were also laminated wooden heads too.

[jeffwarne]

I played most of my formative years with laminated woods-Wilson Staff
Many tour players used laminated drivers.

A good persimmon driver was very hard to find and in fact, the first time I heard of a $500 driver it was in the early 80's (ironically for persimmon drivers from the 1950's-talk about reverse technology)


I listened to a radio program about the sound quality of antique violins and how coveted they are but unaffordable-I couldn't help but think there must be a cheaper high tech high high performance alternative (but then luddites like me would complain )

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I get the charm/different from everyone else component.  But specifically what would golf would lose if the PGA Tour had its own rules?

I've answered that question a number of times. A lot of golfers like that they play the same game as the pros. And, unlike other sports, golfers often move up and down and play a variety of levels of competition: a PGA Tour player might play a weekend game against his friends or family, an amateur might play one weekend in his club championship and then the next weekend in a U.S. Open qualifier. You don't have college baseball players taking their metal bats to the major leagues a few weekends a year.

Golf is governed by one set of rules and that's very appealing to a lot of people.

What is the incentive for the PGA Tour to adopt its own rules with regard to equipment?

Good point. There is none.

The Tour is already bifurcated. Anyone on here can happily use U shaped grooves and I still love my Eye 2 + wedges.  You cannot use U shaped grooves on Tour.  Likewise I can change the brand and style of ball as many times as I like in a round.  Try doing that on Tour.

Hmmmm. The grooves, nobody's still using those, and if they are, they're worn as heck. They grandfathered old clubs so people didn't have to buy new ones so quickly. The one-ball rule? We have that in place for some of our higher level amateur events. It's a Condition of Competition IIRC, and anyone is free to use it.

[Brian Walshe]

Erik,


The point on the grooves is that there were plenty of brand new u grooves out there when the rule changed.  In fact virtually every club sold at the time had U grooves,  Years on there are still plenty of golfers (the ones you mention who like to play the same game as the pros) still using u groove clubs.  The world didn't end because the Tour decided that the Pros would play different equipment to the rest of the golfing world nor did the change force any of the equipment manufacturers to go broke.  I know golfers who went out and stocked up on u groove wedges and who will use them right up tot he day they are banned.  The fact that Jordan and Rickie use something different isn't a concern.

[Jon Wiggett]

What was interesting was as Lucas struggled with the wood I told him to imagine hitting the tee shot he would hit if he needed a par to win a tournament.
He got to the 18th hole in Portugal a week later needing a birdie to tie - after Tom Lewis made it from 50 feet for par on 17 - and drove it 25 yards into the lake on the left.
It's hard to be too critical though - he started the year with no status on the European Tour and after playing 15 tournaments (about) he's 38th on the money list.

Mike, can you clarify how they computed the "averages" for his drives with the old persimmon club?  It seemed like they threw out the bad hooks and averaged his solid ones and they were still that far behind.  What was a bad drive like for distance and direction?

So is it correct that the distances were judged by computer rather than 'actual' readings on the ground? Also, if as Tom says, they removed the poorer shots then you get no average.


I wonder why they would do this.

[Peter Flory]

Trackman has 2 versions/ modes.  The outdoor trackman uses radar to track the exact actual ball flight. 


The indoor version only tracks the ball for x number of feet and then calculates the rest based on velocity, spin, angle, etc (and 'they have obviously an extensive database from the outdoor trackman to make sure that the indoor version's calcs are accurate). 




For the average, it seems like they were trying to get an average for flush hits so that they could judge the equipment and not the player.  They culled the data so that they got the results that they might otherwise get from a robot tester if one would have been available. 

[Pat Burke]

Nitpicking
U grooves and square ares till legal.  They just can not exceed a certain “volume”,
So in effect they are smaller or further apart


While tour pros have in effect had to play the new grooves,they also have access to brand new wedges (and grooves/faces) as often as they like.
Used to be many held on to favorite old wedges forever, now many put new grooves in play quite often. 
I had two nearly identical 56 and 60 degree wedges.  Practiced with one 90 percent of the time, had the less used one handy with fresher grooves when needed.  To me, a low spin guy, it helped.......at least mentally!


The comparison test in this was similar to what I’ve experienced on my own.  The biggest difference being the longer/lighter new club, and how much harder I had to work to get the new ball in the air with my old persimmons.


My unscientific experience was surprisingly little difference in distance with new stuff vs old ball/ new club.   Usually within ten yards.


When I worked out getting the new ball in the air (usually a slight fade too) it was again not a staggering difference.  Hitting an old ball with a persimmon, it got in the air easier, and did not roll nearly as much after landing, but again, the difference was t staggering for me vs new ball......maybe 8-10.


The balls were Maxfli HT fwiw.  We’re still in box, but stored in my garage, and basically there since mid 1990’s   I was shocked at how they still flew decently.

[Kalen Braley]

Erik,


Once again, we're only talking about having a separate set of rules for the PGA TOUR, not top level AMs or otherwise, (which I agree Ams do play in a much more diverse set of tournaments). College golf, state AMs, regional championships, local club matches, would all remain unchanged.


So a PGA tour player plays with some buddies on the weekend at their home course in an off week.  This is just a friendly game, perhaps with some side wagers....not a serious competition or otherwise.  Its really no different than a NBA player running a pickup game with some old college buddies, or a NFL player running a friendly backyard game with some childhood friends.


So I will ask again, what do we all lose if the PGA Tour has a different set of rules, that are 99% the same with a few tweaks for equipment?

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