[David_Tepper]

"The Great Distance Debate"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMCUplptnCQ

[Mike_Clayton]

Perhaps the most interesting thing was the old balls off the new drivers only flew 15/16 yards less. They may have lost something but it shows how much the driver - longer, lighter shafts and frying pan heads conducive to swinging as fast as possible - has contributed to the increase in distance.

[Tom_Doak]

Major League Baseball stuck with wooden bats when every other level switched over.  Had golf done the same, all the ball technology in the world would have produced 15 yards more distance, instead of 40.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: I agree with you and you could add in the graphite shafts which allow for much more custom fitting.  However, you must remember that in baseball they own the ballparks and don't want to have to build all new parks plus there is a safety issue as the ball would be heading into the stands at much higher speeds and become far more dangerous.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Perhaps the most interesting thing was the old balls off the new drivers only flew 15/16 yards less. They may have lost something but it shows how much the driver - longer, lighter shafts and frying pan heads conducive to swinging as fast as possible - has contributed to the increase in distance.

I agree. And yeah, those old balls were not exactly in mint condition - they'd undoubtedly lost some of their original pop.

Major League Baseball stuck with wooden bats when every other level switched over.  Had golf done the same, all the ball technology in the world would have produced 15 yards more distance, instead of 40.

Baseball is not overseen by one (or two, who agree) ruling bodies.

[jeffwarne]

agreed Erik-those old balls looked...old
I remember balata balls seeming dead after a couple of years-amazed there was that little difference but as stated, lighter, longer allows more speed+ the low spinning properties of the modern (recent) woods helped with the high spin balls.


the kid wasn't exactly smoothing it so I'd say the waffle head helped as well

[Tom_Doak]

Tom: I agree with you and you could add in the graphite shafts which allow for much more custom fitting.  However, you must remember that in baseball they own the ballparks and don't want to have to build all new parks plus there is a safety issue as the ball would be heading into the stands at much higher speeds and become far more dangerous.

Jerry:


Actually, in many cases, I think we own the parks.


Also, there are many more safety issues at golf courses than at MLB stadiums.

[Peter Flory]

I have many boxes of professional 90s (out of nostalgia) and have played rounds with them in the past year.  I've also done a lot of chipping and putting with them. 


They definitely degrade from inactivity.  Many of them just won't roll straight at all when you putt them.  It's like they settled and are out of balance. 


Some of them go better than others.  But I've had a couple that just were stale as hell.  I'd hit a full hybrid and flush it and it would fly 40 yards shorter than another one would.  And some of the ones that are no good sat in a plastic sealed package and in a temperate controlled area for all these years (in a dark closet). 


I'd be really curious to see the true difference between a newly manufactured professional 90/100 and a ProV.  I know there is a big difference, but it's tough to know with 20 year old stale balls.  I wonder if the rubber bands dry out and lose their elasticity. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Yet this does not alter the basic issue.


Shots are getting longer whether it is the ball, the club or both. The simplest, quickest and cheapest solution is to reduce the distance the ball flies.

[Steve Kline]

A co-worker who was a good tennis player told me that tennis had the same problem in switching from wooden rackets to whatever they use now. Lighter, bigger heads allowed balls to be hit much harder. Now you need to hit a massive serve (or drive) to really have a chance. Hardly anyone serves and volleys anymore. Rockets from the baseline only. Passing shots are easier to hit.


Basically, it seems that it is the equipment (lighter and more forgiving) and not the balls in most sports.


The one thing that kid really noticed in the video above was that you had to hit the wooden driver on the screws or you really lost distance and it went really crooked.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike C - the best part for me was your reminiscences of playing in the wind and amongst the trees, and the challenge involved in learning how to keep the ball from ballooning. That combined with the young fellow's assessment of how forgiving the modern driver & ball is in comparison (with less than ideal strikes still flying long and staying in play) gives me a glimpse of how much harder it is today for the truly great player to separate himself from the pack. Which is to say: we hear all the time about how much deeper the fields are today than in your/Nicklaus' time and how many more golfers there are who can win on any given Sunday -- but maybe the fields aren't so much deeper, just so much more packed together.
P

[JMEvensky]

Mike Clayton--how long did it take LH to adapt to the persimmon driver?

[Kalen Braley]

I'm still curious, why the PGA Tour cannot adopt its own version of the rules of play?...especially when pretty much every other pro sport already does it...


NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc...all have thier own custom rules, owned and editable by them and only them...

[Thomas Dai]

Once upon a time the Driver was the hardest club in the bag to hit well. No longer. Also worth pointing out that the old generation wound golf ball went out of shape (ie cut) when not hit properly and didn’t fly or roll very well afterwards.
Note that the data recorded on the video is in metres rather than yards.

Old Driver with modern balls is interesting. Knocks a good bit of distance off and still not easy to hit straight. Lower trajectory too.
Old spec clubs with a modern spec ball (ie one that stays round) would be a decent compromise. Not holding my breath though.
Atb

[JESII]

Would love to have seen his numbers with an old Pinnacle off both drivers...

[Peter Flory]

The player in the video had a very nice swing and was getting close to 120mph clubhead speed with a modern club.


With the 1985 driver and balls from that era, he was only getting 256 yards compared to the PGA tour average of 260.18 in 1985.  That tells me that the balls go stale.  There is no way that his swing speed is less than an average tour player.  I would say that it is probably a few mph faster.  Maybe the ground conditions or wind were a little different.


I do believe that it is a better and more interesting game with the smaller persimmon drivers though.  You can get way more fear/ danger on a tee shot on the original versions of courses than you can from a mile back with modern clubs.  To me, that makes everything more interesting and brings strategy into play more.  It also allows more types of players to compete- the Corey Pavins of the world. 

[Mike_Clayton]

Peter,


Since the test, Lucas Herbert finished 2nd in the Portuguese Open, (he flew out the next day) 7th in the Dunhill at St Andrews,Carnoustie and Kingsbarns and last week 3rd in the British Masters at Walton Heath. He's now the youngest player in the top 100 in the world - 22yo and 78th.
It's true the balls get old and performance drops a little but the brand new balls were only flying around 15 yards farther so not that stale. I'm sure Titleistt and Taylor Made would like to think for all the millions spend on R&D they had managed to pick up at least 15 yards on 'degraded' balls 30 years old.
It was quite a cold day - maybe 65 degrees - and he was hitting into a very slight headwind. I'd guess the wind was worth maybe 5-10 yards.

[JESII]

For clarification...his numbers were from Trackman, and all based on calculations off launch conditions, correct? Maybe I'm an idiot, but Trackman doesn't factor in cold, wet etc...when it's giving carry/roll/total yardages, does it?  In theory if he turned around and hit with the wind the numbers would have been the same?


There's no doubt top players today are hitting the ball well farther than top players 30+ years ago. What is also not in debate is that there are several factors involved and 'rolling back' a single one will not drive even 20% of the difference in my view. If we took driver head size and balls back to 1980 I still feel the opportunity to optimize shaft and head to ideal launch conditions and the more scientific approach to swing mechanics, and larger, stronger players and course set ups that don't punish slightly missed fairways will result in 75% of the added length we've found anyway...

[Tom Bacsanyi]

What someone needs to do is come out with a modern ball that simulates a balata ball in flight but with modern durability and manufacturing consistency.  I think there is a limited but perhaps profitable market for such a ball.  Persimmon and vintage gear aficionados as an example.  I'm sure none of the major manufacturers would touch it, but could be a nice little niche for the upstart manufacturers such as Vice, Snell, Cut, etc.  Come to think of it, the hickory crowd might go wild for a modern take on the gutta-percha or Haskell ball.  You might then see small tournaments pop up where the mandate is a certain ball must be played.  The idea that one day the USGA or PGA tour will wake up and mandate a rollback with a stroke of a pen is pure fantasy.  If there is to be a rollback, it's a movement that needs to be grassroots in it's nature.

[JESII]

Tom, the market of people looking to hit the ball shorter that it’d be more economical to have someone stuffing featheries in their living room...

[Peter Pallotta]

 

I don't know how good-to-great golfers of the past experienced playing with persimmon, but for this modern, average golfer I find the persimmon game to be sort of like fly fishing: there are certainly easier ways to catch fish and surer ways to catch a lot more of them, but it is deeply satisfying when, on occasion, the perfect cast drops that little hand-made fly in the perfect spot.
It doesn't show up on the scorecard, this satisfaction, but since I'm not playing for money it doesn't need to.
Other times, of course, I just want to catch a lot of fish fast.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Shots are getting longer whether it is the ball, the club or both. The simplest, quickest and cheapest solution is to reduce the distance the ball flies.

I don't think it demonstrates that too well. If the difference is 10 yards, because the balls are degraded, is that worth all the fuss? 15? 20, over the last 30+ years, with almost all of that coming from the ability to swing the driver faster because it's lighter, longer, and has a bigger clubface? Everyone's going to have a different line, and unfortunately, we can't have a "new" dozen Titleist Professionals or Tour Balatas to try out. Or a "new" 1900 Pinnacle or Top-Flite.

I'm still curious, why the PGA Tour cannot adopt its own version of the rules of play?...especially when pretty much every other pro sport already does it...

They can do whatever they want. But at their own risk… I think a lot of the charm in golf is that we play under the same rules. I think we'd lose a TON if the PGA Tour played bifurcated rules.

Would love to have seen his numbers with an old Pinnacle off both drivers...

Probably pretty similar to the Pro V1 numbers. Slightly better aerodynamics (dimple patterns) on the modern ball, I'm sure.

[Peter Flory]

My big takeaway from that video is that he would seriously have to adapt his swing to put the ball in play consistently with the old equipment.  I play vintage equipment/ hickory clubs on the side- maybe about 10% of my rounds, but I don't swing like a modern bomber.  So, I don't have to do much differently to go back and forth. 


However, he and most other modern players, really do rip at the ball something fierce.  And it makes sense, because they can miss it all over the huge sweetspot and get acceptable results.  The shorter shaft, the heavier head, and a more deliberate swing would take a 120 mph swing speed down to 105 I bet in a tournament setting. 


So, in that respect, it isn't so much about max distance, it is more about consistent distance.  It matters far less how far someone can hit their best drive when it brings so much risk into the equation.  It's why nobody is afraid of the long drive guys in a golf tournament.  They may hit it 400 yards, but that is a 1 in 5 shot and the rest are off the grid.

But imagine him standing on the 18th hole at Sawgrass with a 1 shot lead.  Or in a Ryder Cup environment.  A pop up is not completely out of the realm of possibility.  A snap hook, a heeled slice, and many other horrible outcomes are likely with an overswing or a nervous swing.


Greg Norman would have been such a killer with modern drivers. 

[JESII]

“Greg Norman would have been such a killer with modern drivers.”








Is that like saying Ben Crenshaw would have done better if all putts were dead straight?

[Peter Flory]

“Greg Norman would have been such a killer with modern drivers.”





 


Is that like saying Ben Crenshaw would have done better if all putts were dead straight?

No, I think Crenshaw would have been relatively worse if that were the case compared to his peers. 


With Norman, he just swung so hard and had some nervous misses.  Of anyone in that era, I think he could have benefited the most from having a frying pan in his hands.  May have helped with his 31 second place finishes. 

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