[Eric Smith]

I’m kind of with Pat on this one.  If you’ve got the cash and connections and can get it done without being an annoying access whore, great.  The thing is once you’ve played a significant number of good courses you should have a pretty good idea of your interests, taste and aesthetic preference.  If you’d still rather play that last Fazio to fill a list instead of that Langford 9-holer, well that’s just kind of sad.

I think you’re making a fine argument until you throw Fazio under the bus. Why do I need to play that last Raynor?

[David Davis]

It's hard for me to understand the negative comments about anyone on this site doing what they choose to do (or are passionate about), be it following a list or spending hours posting on and reading a niche website about Golf Course Architecture. If you find yourself spending time on a site like this you better first look in the mirror before calling anyone else out for being a bit crazier than you.


Like many of you I know Schulzie pretty well, have played a fair bit of golf with him and really enjoy his threads, first of all they are for the most part on the topic of Golf Course Architecture (which 50% of the other threads are not), he has a funny way of writing and he most certainly is not list chasing any longer. If you think that then I would love to see the lists that include places like Iceland and all these US courses that he travels around playing. He is a rater for Golf Magazines World Panel which most know and if you are on that panel then I think it's totally reasonable to want to play the entire list you are voting on (creating). After all how do you really know what should, and should not be on the list unless you see it. I think that's the least we could expect of the people making these lists whether they are right or wrong in your opinion. I can also assure you that Schulzie's Top 100 List is quite a bit different than the final posted list from Golf Magazine. (though I don't have proof of this, it's just a hunch)


Personally, I'd agree that none of the lists are perfect, and I too have been using lists for years to see the world and direct my study of GCA and personal travel. The first list was the Confidential Guide that I was lucky enough to get directly from Tom D. when he found a box in his attic many years ago and made a post and offer that the first people that reacted could buy them at the original price (or something of this nature). Then I used many of the others as well including Golf Magazine, Planet Golf, the GCA Lists and more recently our own lists at Top 100 Golf. Living abroad it was one of the best things I've ever done to learn, direct foreign travel and follow my hobby. On top of that, the traveling around the world to play crazy courses has allowed me to meet more interesting, new people (not to mentioned like minded golf architecture enthusiasts) every single year than I would of met in an entire lifetime of staying local.


There is also something to be said for finishing what you started. It's easy in life to make excuses and give up on something you once dreamt about, it's another thing to have the kind of personality that drives you to simply finish what you started. Tommy, in your example, you suggest that you literally almost finished the list which is pretty amazing IMO but then you say you realized it wasn't interesting or important to you to continue on. Others chimed in saying the same thing. Why on earth did it take you playing 80 courses to come to this conclusion? I don't know you at all so I can't judge this but on paper it's a bit strange. It's like almost being at the finish line of an Ironman Triatholon you really love and then just deciding you would rather not be in the race but jog around the block. Again, your choice but to me that type of excuse feels strange. If you guys said you played the Top 10 and realized it wasn't going to get any better than that ok fine. Or perhaps realized your local course was far better than anything on the list, even better but almost finishing, stopping and berating people for doing it just doesn't seem too fair.


I'd say if you want to start somewhere then most of these lists, although controversial are not terrible places to start. Whether it's Ran's 147 Custodians or Golf Magazine's List or the Confidential Guides doesn't really matter. If you think you are better off to go deep in your local community to learn as much as you can about GCA, great, do it. Ignorance is still bliss no matter where your local community may be.

[Tom_Doak]

There is also something to be said for finishing what you started. It's easy in life to make excuses and give up on something you once dreamt about, it's another thing to have the kind of personality that drives you to simply finish what you started. Tommy, in your example, you suggest that you literally almost finished the list which is pretty amazing IMO but then you say you realized it wasn't interesting or important to you to continue on. Others chimed in saying the same thing. Why on earth did it take you playing 80 courses to come to this conclusion? I don't know you at all so I can't judge this but on paper it's a bit strange. It's like almost being at the finish line of an Ironman Triatholon you really love and then just deciding you would rather not be in the race but jog around the block. Again, your choice but to me that type of excuse feels strange. 

I think at some point, most realize that there is a certain amount of tokenism involved in the creation of all these lists, and that there is little point in going to Spain or Portugal to see the courses chosen there.  I guess it's possible that an Arthur Hills course in Portugal would be better than I imagine it to be ... but that is a pretty low bar.  There are lots and lots of courses that I would imagine to be better than that.  Maybe even a couple in Portugal.


So at that point, what drives someone to complete the list anyway?  It would be different for different people, but the most common reason would be ego.  And sure, there is lots of ego spread thick all across the golf business, so these panelists are no more guilty of it than anybody else in the business [or anyone who posts here].  But a lot of those other egotists are also spending a good part of their lives trying to make the golf world a better place, and I don't think you can put being a globetrotting panelist on par with that.


Personally, I look at triathletes and think they must be battling inner demons, but to compare a physical challenge like that with playing the top 100 courses in the world is kind of ridiculous.  They are not the same sort of accomplishment, and the fact that fewer people have done the latter does not make it more special.  It's not like climbing the Seven Summits.

[Jim Nugent]

I like Schulz' threads.  The courses and holes he profiles look cooler than hell -- and he seems to have tons of fun experiencing them.   


Not sure why wanting to play the best is an issue.  I see variations on that theme all over GCA, from asking for recommendations, to the 10-round spread, to the Doak Scale.  But either way Bill plays and writes about plenty of courses outside the top 100. 


While I've never met Bill, low self-esteem does not seem like a problem for him. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy, in your example, you suggest that you literally almost finished the list which is pretty amazing IMO but then you say you realized it wasn't interesting or important to you to continue on. Others chimed in saying the same thing. Why on earth did it take you playing 80 courses to come to this conclusion? I don't know you at all so I can't judge this but on paper it's a bit strange. It's like almost being at the finish line of an Ironman Triatholon you really love and then just deciding you would rather not be in the race but jog around the block. Again, your choice but to me that type of excuse feels strange. If you guys said you played the Top 10 and realized it wasn't going to get any better than that ok fine. Or perhaps realized your local course was far better than anything on the list, even better but almost finishing, stopping and berating people for doing it just doesn't seem too fair.

I finally quit because the lists are like moving targets. It just was too much commitment to travel that I did not want to take. Heck, I haven't even been to Bandon where I could wrap up four courses on one visit. I used to run triathlons but never quit in a race. I have since retired from the sport. It required three hours of intense training six days a week. I couldn't keep it up. My body just couldn't do it now that I am in my 70's.

[Peter Pallotta]

Just an aside: every time Tommy posts I end my reading of his thoughts with his tagline, ie about being the change you wish to see. And every time it freezes me for a  second or so before, inevitably, I put it out of my mind and carry on. But it really is a challenge, isn't it, ie to be and to bring about -- whether as a golfer or architect or super or poster or rater or owner or blogger or club-member or world traveller -- the 'change' we really wish to see. A simple but quite incisive & telling categorical imperative.
P

[David Davis]

There is also something to be said for finishing what you started. It's easy in life to make excuses and give up on something you once dreamt about, it's another thing to have the kind of personality that drives you to simply finish what you started. Tommy, in your example, you suggest that you literally almost finished the list which is pretty amazing IMO but then you say you realized it wasn't interesting or important to you to continue on. Others chimed in saying the same thing. Why on earth did it take you playing 80 courses to come to this conclusion? I don't know you at all so I can't judge this but on paper it's a bit strange. It's like almost being at the finish line of an Ironman Triatholon you really love and then just deciding you would rather not be in the race but jog around the block. Again, your choice but to me that type of excuse feels strange. 

I think at some point, most realize that there is a certain amount of tokenism involved in the creation of all these lists, and that there is little point in going to Spain or Portugal to see the courses chosen there.  I guess it's possible that an Arthur Hills course in Portugal would be better than I imagine it to be ... but that is a pretty low bar.  There are lots and lots of courses that I would imagine to be better than that.  Maybe even a couple in Portugal.


So at that point, what drives someone to complete the list anyway?  It would be different for different people, but the most common reason would be ego.  And sure, there is lots of ego spread thick all across the golf business, so these panelists are no more guilty of it than anybody else in the business [or anyone who posts here].  But a lot of those other egotists are also spending a good part of their lives trying to make the golf world a better place, and I don't think you can put being a globetrotting panelist on par with that.


Personally, I look at triathletes and think they must be battling inner demons, but to compare a physical challenge like that with playing the top 100 courses in the world is kind of ridiculous.  They are not the same sort of accomplishment, and the fact that fewer people have done the latter does not make it more special.  It's not like climbing the Seven Summits.

Tom,


I didn't make an argument that would disagree with your tokenism comment, in fact I'd agree with that. In my personal Top 100 there are no courses in Portugal for example but that's neither here nor there (and I've actually played most high end courses down there), and that's just my opinion but clearly others disagree with that for whatever reason which is fine.


If I'm not mistaken you created the list you refer to, or maybe just one, now two particular panels (if I include the Confidential Guides). Surely you expected that in doing so people would want to play the courses in the list? You are really negative about them even though many of them are improving but isn't that only because you had, I don't know how many years, of experience running them and being part of them? If it weren't for the commercial aspect of them I really doubt you would be against them or those pursuing them at all.


My example of Triathlons may not have been the best one, fair enough point, but my only point was in finishing what you started. Some have to do it, clearly others do not. I disagree however with your comment about them battling demons though I guess it was a touch sarcastic. In that case we all have our own demons to battle and I actually would consider it akin to golf's version of the 7 summits although having climbed several mountains I can't imagine the Everest climb. I'm glad I picked the less "extreme" sport for a change.


Why do you keep traveling around visiting courses? What demons are driving you? I mean having seen possibly thousands of courses I can't imagine you are searching for that one new idea or anything. Your legacy is secure IMO so why continue all the travel and those random course visits?

[Tom_Doak]

Why do you keep traveling around visiting courses? What demons are driving you? I mean having seen possibly thousands of courses I can't imagine you are searching for that one new idea or anything. Your legacy is secure IMO so why continue all the travel and those random course visits?

I feel like I've got more to learn - and also some responsibility to pass on what I have learned, to other places and other people.


And I also need reminders of what are the important parts about golf.  So much of what we do now in design is esoteric and unnecessary.


But you'll notice that I'm not following a list at all anymore, or even trying to create one myself.  I'm going further and further off the beaten track, because that's the only place I'm going to find something different:  India, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Vietnam, etc.  I suppose you could do the same thing in Scotland - I've already done a bunch of that, but that will still be easy when I'm 65.  [India, not!]


There is a bunch of good work being produced in the U.S. now, but little of it that could be described as "different".


P.S.  I think I'm somewhere over 1500 courses now, but I don't really obsess over the number; I only know it because it's one of the columns in the index spreadsheets for The Confidential Guide.

[Tim Martin]

I’m not trying to play any lists. That said isn’t it entirely possible that someone could endeavor as a “hobbyist”(I love that term) to play a lot of golf courses without having to effect change or make the golf world a better place? I think we are getting into overreach territory guys. Carry on.

[Jud_T]

The point is not jealousy, it’s a lack of individuality or creativity.  I have no issue with being determined in playing MY Top 100 list, but being married to the Digest or Golf Magazine list in lieu of prioritizing courses that pique your personal passion, interest or research seems at best superficial.  I have a lot more respect for a guy who, after sufficient exposure, knows that his personal True North is Donald Ross and his goal, regardless of exclusivity or status, is to play and study every Donald Ross course, or every links course, every Steamshovel Banks or walking only course etc. instead of calling in all his favors to belt notch Rich Harvest Links so he can put an X next to it on his framed Digest list on his man cave wall.  Just one former belt-notcher’s take.

[Ira Fishman]

Just an aside: every time Tommy posts I end my reading of his thoughts with his tagline, ie about being the change you wish to see. And every time it freezes me for a  second or so before, inevitably, I put it out of my mind and carry on. But it really is a challenge, isn't it, ie to be and to bring about -- whether as a golfer or architect or super or poster or rater or owner or blogger or club-member or world traveller -- the 'change' we really wish to see. A simple but quite incisive & telling categorical imperative.
P

Peter,


Sorry but need to call you out on this one. Not kosher to invoke 14th Century poet about experience being superior to knowledge in one thread and the Kantian categorical imperative in another thread within 36 hours.


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

 
Ira - Please don't hate me for having wasted so much time in such unprofitable reading. I'm really sad that it's not kosher, but I can't help myself dropping in  beloved references from old texts -- and in my defence, what's worse is sharing my thoughts about gca!
Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

I just wish that the people who play the top 100 lists didn't decide which courses are on the list. It's like letting parents decide which children are "gifted".

[Bill Gayne]

I'm envious of Schulzie and anyone else who plays all of the top 100 courses. If it's their goal, I think it's awesome that they have the commitment to achieve goals while have fun doing it. I think a goal of playing the top 100 is a worthwhile effort if you have the resources, time, and ability.


(Although  I'm going to take a shot at Schulzie and the Cal Bears at present losing to UCLA 13-7 WTF!)

[Ruediger Meyer]

As much as I'd love to play them, it is just not realistic to do without connection. Even my personal #1 is unrealistic


So, I simply try to take two vacations a year and identify with the help of you fine guys and Mr. Doak's Confidential Guide the course that are worthwhile to play in the area.

[Jim Tang]

We all have some internal driving force that directs where and when we play golf.  For some guys, it's playing the designs of a particular architect or playing golf with your favorite group of buddies or playing in as many GCA events as you can or chasing a list put out by a publication.....


Whatever your motivation is as to where you play golf is no concerns of mine. 


I have a personal list of courses I created 3 years ago of 108 places I'd like to experience before I hang it up (Originally, my list was to be 100 but I could not narrow it down).  It was fun to put the list together and much of it was created by what I've learned here on GCA over the years.  Some courses on the list are the usual suspects but many, are not.  Many I will probably never play.  The driving force behind the list was, "Hey, that place looks pretty cool and a lot of fun and I'd love to experience a round there, someday."  To this point I think I've played 13 courses on my personal bucket list and there is great joy anytime I get to experience one of these places.


To each, their own.

[JC Urbina]

I want to meet Schulzie  some day and ask him a few questions about his travels and visiting the top 100.


I am sure his responses will be enlighting! 

[Lou_Duran]

I’m not trying to play any lists. That said isn’t it entirely possible that someone could endeavor as a “hobbyist”(I love that term) to play a lot of golf courses without having to effect change or make the golf world a better place? I think we are getting into overreach territory guys. Carry on.

Like for the sheer pleasure of playing a wonderful game in diverse settings?  And are there better maps than lists (of whatever stripe pleases you)?

[Tim Martin]

I’m not trying to play any lists. That said isn’t it entirely possible that someone could endeavor as a “hobbyist”(I love that term) to play a lot of golf courses without having to effect change or make the golf world a better place? I think we are getting into overreach territory guys. Carry on.

Like for the sheer pleasure of playing a wonderful game in diverse settings?  And are there better maps than lists (of whatever stripe pleases you)?

Lou-Exactly!!!! “For sheer pleasure.”

[Lou_Duran]

Why do you keep traveling around visiting courses? What demons are driving you? I mean having seen possibly thousands of courses I can't imagine you are searching for that one new idea or anything. Your legacy is secure IMO so why continue all the travel and those random course visits?

I feel like I've got more to learn - and also some responsibility to pass on what I have learned, to other places and other people.

And I also need reminders of what are the important parts about golf.  So much of what we do now in design is esoteric and unnecessary.

The first sentence belongs in the "Evangelist" thread with some development of the humble thought that those who transmit knowledge on the authority of their position should feel the responsibility to continue learning.

The second sentence is loaded and would make a great thread worthy of many pages on its own right.  I would love an expansion of the third, perhaps substituting "superfluous" for "unnecessary".   

[Tim Martin]

Why do you keep traveling around visiting courses? What demons are driving you? I mean having seen possibly thousands of courses I can't imagine you are searching for that one new idea or anything. Your legacy is secure IMO so why continue all the travel and those random course visits?

I feel like I've got more to learn - and also some responsibility to pass on what I have learned, to other places and other people.

And I also need reminders of what are the important parts about golf.  So much of what we do now in design is esoteric and unnecessary.

The first sentence belongs in the "Evangelist" thread with some development of the humble thought that those who transmit knowledge on the authority of their position should feel the responsibility to continue learning.

The second sentence is loaded and would make a great thread worthy of many pages on its own right.  I would love an expansion of the third, perhaps substituting "superfluous" for "unnecessary".   

Lou-I am happy that Tom Doak takes the view he does as he is absolutely in a position to transmit knowledge with a diverse background in the game as a top architect, author, traveler etc. I don’t think though as suggested by a few different posters that there should be some sort of altruistic component attached to trying to play a “list”. It appears that many of the people trying to do same are just golf enthusiasts not connected to the business of golf or more specifically golf architecture. Sometimes you can just play with your pals(regardless of venue) and leave the “evangelist” hat in the trunk.

[Mark Chaplin]

I’ve never chased any top 100 lists, I’m not interested in visiting South Korea or Thailand just to play a suspect inclusion on a list nor am I willing to pay $500+ for a round in NZ when the likes of the wonderful Paraparaumu Beach with mates costs a whole lot less.


I have been privileged to play many great courses but now if offered a lone round at a top 100 or a game at a decent course with 3 good buddies the latter would win every time.

[Lou_Duran]

Me as well Tim.  I appreciate Tom and Jeff Brauer spending time on these pages.  Their perspectives based on great experience and significant results are invaluable.  I wish Jim Urbina, Paul Cowley, Ian Andrew, Joe Hancock, and Don Mahaffey would post more regularly.  As far as I am concerned, these guys can "evangelize" as much as they want.

Personally, as a member of the "golf is a big world" camp, I don't care so much about why or how people are motivated to play as much as that they do play AND attempt to do so in keeping with Section 1 of the rulebook.  If some folks like to show up on the first tee displaying half-dozen logos from Top 100 courses, that's an indication that they are putting money back into the golf economy and, perhaps, are on a journey of higher pleasure or knowledge by  sampling from among the considered best.   If others like SeanA prefer diving deep into a more modest genre, that's fantastic too.  That we benefit from his preferences through the interesting pictorials he posts regularly is a nice bonus.

BTW, altruism, whatever that means, is highly overrated.  I doubt that CB Macdonald was an altruistic sort and look at all he has left the golf world.  Again, if a World 100 quest is undertaken by someone to create superior airs and brag on a website or at cocktail parties, many people along the way gain for his efforts- the airlines, car rentals, hotels, restaurants, clubs, others in the network, and those of us who may get a glimpse of something we might otherwise never know.   I much prefer the guy who carries the water and is perhaps overly aggressive/provocative with his opinions to one whose proficiency is with the keyboard, thesaurus, and famous quotes, and seeing what sticks to the wall.  Thank God we seem to have enough bandwidth to accommodate all.       

[V_Halyard]

I honestly love Bill’s quest. I find it Gulliveresque. That said I partially agree with Pat. Some Top-100’s  are Top-Shite.


If I had the time, I would play a composite top 100 and work to purge it of as many the bulls#it pay-to-play-to-be-listed courses as possible. 


I also make it a point to find a great muni or public access in the vacinity of whatever Top 100 course I have the luck of playing.


Last month, it was Canal Shores in Evanston. This month, Stoatin Brae. Reach high and Mix it up.

[Scott Warren]

Though I've pretty well moved past chasing notches on lists, I think all of us have done it at least early on and so you can't in total sincerity eviscerate others who are trying to play all the courses on whatever list. Using lists to direct my travel is a decent part of what led me to work out what I preferred and what I disliked and build the experience and sample size to feel confident making my own decisions about the courses I most want to see from now on.


But I would say a few things in relation to this thread:


* I don't buy David Davis' contention that "I think it's totally reasonable to want to play the entire list you are voting on (creating). After all how do you really know what should, and should not be on the list unless you see it." That would only be so if you were on a quest to play every single candidate for inclusion on the list. Simply playing the 100 that got listed won't tell you whether all of the 100 courses should or shouldn't be on there.


* The quest for top 100 course access can be a drug for those who are so inclined and really the only examples of shitty guest etiquitte or conduct I have experienced as a host came from people who were pursuing their next Top 100 list "fix" and ruthless enough to torch a game of golf with me at Course A after doing the lengthy "engage-request-arrange" dance because they finally got on to a member at Course B at the 11th hour and the only day they can host is a clash. The winners - I can't split them - are the guy who feigned sickness, not realising I was mates with the guy who was hosting him at another course the same day, and the fella who recently ask me to nominate three dates that suited me so he could consider how best to fit a 16-hour stop in Sydney into his schedule!


* More than any other course, I feel like a lot of people are desperate to play at Augusta National so they can say they played at Augusta National. I'd love to see an honest survey of 100 list-chasers and see how many would take ANGC over any other Closed Gate top 20 listed club if they were never allowed to tell another soul that they played at ANGC.


* If Driving Time > Golfing Time for any 48-hour period of a golf trip, you're doing it wrong.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()