[John Kavanaugh]

Edit

[Sean_A]

because if I found such a place, why would I ever want to play anywhere else? What could possibly be better?
Peter

Variety..and it is likely that you will need to go home 

Ciao

[Peter Flory]

This is the only way that I could complete the top 100 quest. 

[Tom_Doak]

Here’s a question:


The GD Top 100 or every Doak Scale 7 and above?  Which would be more fun?

My guess is that the vast majority of top 100 courses on most lists are Doak 7s. Both are list questions. The question I'm wondering is, do we play any unranked Doaks?

Every course that gets a 5 or more in my book is worth seeing.  That's more courses than most people will see in a lifetime, so it confounds the list-chasers, but that's the truth.  Even I will never see all of the courses that are deserving of that score, though I've tried harder than most people to identify them.




My problem with the system is the implication that courses that aren't "contenders" for the top 100 aren't worth somebody's time.  That would mean the list-chasers are dismissing at least half of my courses, and a lot more than half of most designers' life work.


It should not be the goal of every new course to get into the top 100 or a Best New ranking.  For starters, the numbers don't work that way  , but more importantly, trying to get there is often the cause of overloading courses with features they don't need, in the quest to make every hole memorable.


I am extremely grateful when we have a client like for CommonGround or The Loop that doesn't fall into this trap, and yes it bothers me that some raters act as though those courses are less important because they aren't ranked.

[PCCraig]

Here’s a question:


The GD Top 100 or every Doak Scale 7 and above?  Which would be more fun?

Or all of the gourmet choice courses.

[PCCraig]

Edited

[Buck Wolter]

I have been to China +/-20 times and never played golf there until my last trip where I thought WWBSD? and got out of my comfort zone and ventured out to Yangtze Dunes. Bill's description of his trip across the Midwest got me thinking that life is short and I need to at least try to see more golf courses when possible.  I have no intention of trying to check off a list but I'm glad Bill has put his considerable energy into it and shares it here.

Buck

[Matthew Petersen]

My current goal is to get back to the Top One course in Moorpark, CA.

Creekside / Canyon Crest at Moorpark Country Club?

[Tim Gallant]

To answer your question: no, I don't have a specific goal to play the Top 100...of anything. I do follow some of the lists - Golf Mag 100 in the world, Darius' Top 100 in the world, TD's TCG and various websites, however, as others have noted, I don't really have a desire to play a course like Ayodhya Links just because it's on the list, when, looking at photos, I know it's not my sort of place. And that's fine - I really just want to see good golf, whether it's on a list or not.


As an example, instead of a trip to South Korea / Japan to see some of the big names, I think I would enjoy a 2 week road trip through Maine/NH/Mass/Vermont/NY to see the likes of Cape Arundel, Prouts Neck, Ekwanok, Glen Falls, Hooper, etc. Now that appeals to me! But it doesn't change the fact that Hirono and Naruo are probably amazing courses in their own right. Maybe one day I'll get to see both



However, a couple of thoughts ran through my mind when reading some of the responses:


- I think rankings and lists of the best courses can be a positive thing for getting those who aren't into architecture, into golf architecture. It is more likely that they'll pick up the magazine and flip through the rankings and decide they want to see some of the best golf courses, than just randomly coming across books like the confidential guides.


- To this point, I have had a few friends who, after a trip to the UK&I or to some great course, have decided they want to try for the Top100. Usually though, after seeing some of the courses on the list, and some not on the list, they slowly realise that it's subjective, and start to realise the type of golf they really like - list or no list. And so in this way, the list almost acts as a gateway of sorts IMHO to what they like and what type of architecture appeals to them.




To play a bit of devil's advocate I think following a list IS a great way to see the very best golf courses in the world from an architectural point of view. Sure, you may like other courses more, or there might be features on other courses that are worth seeing, however, if someone asked me whether they should go see Muirfield or Kilspindie, and £ was no concern, then I would point them to Muirfield. They might enjoy Kilspindie more, but on one trip Muirfield is the course to see because it represents some of the best that golf routing / bunker placement has to offer, even before you take into consideration its historical importance. Just because it's on a list and ranked in the Top 10 doesn't change that.


I agree that if you have the opportunity to see Kilspindie, to definitely go see it too. But again, on one trip over to Scotland, I have no problem if people want to wiz around and see Muirfield, St Andrews, Carnoustie, Dornoch and Turnberry. They are all unbelievably fantastic golf courses, and to belittle someone for doing that is just bullying.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I began my quest to complete the Golf Magazine world 100 after a student finished up in South Africa in 1995.  We agreed there were courses that ranked way off, and so I began adding to the 40 or so already played.  My quest slowed as I found so many really great courses that were not top 100 contenders, but must plays.  Each year, my must plays get in the way of flying to somewhere for a one and done when one area is full of greats needing my play and replay!  I probably am up in the middle of to high 80's on the list, and am even more convinced about certain misrankings.  I am bothered how Engineers is unranked and Maidstone is way over need.  As for Engineers, when I worked there, we only had a couple rankers who played the course in over2 hours because they seemed to be sandwiching it between Creek and PRC or dinner out East.  One rater who played in 1:27 according to our starter, mistaked the 11th for the 2 or 20 because he parked his cart left of 13/14 and missed the green behind, even though there always was a flag in place.  As for Maidstone, in a world ranking context, can it really be legitimately ranked ahead of Deal, Baltray, Rennaisance, Fornby, and Rye?  I know the reason, but unfortunately, thos knuckleheads really are perverting the rankings!

[JC Jones]

NGLA is not on any list until 1985 and now most of the people on this site who've played it say it is their favorite course.  Fishers Island isn't on Golf Digest until 2000 and now its top 10.  Despite how people on this site perceive themselves, it is hard to distinguish the tail from the dog.

[Kalen Braley]

[John Kavanaugh]

edit

[PCCraig]

Ok, my apologies if my previous statement was too blunt or misleading. I should not of said bribed. And you are right, free is free, I suppose.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thank you. We've all made mistakes.

[David Jones]

I find lists and rankings helpful when planning a trip but they are just one of many resources. I do think that others' opinion of what is good is helpful. The Confidential Guide, top100golfcourses, Planet Earth, this site - they all add to the knowledge bank and help you make an informed choice.


To be a slave to a list would be a problem but, for example, when I was planning my trip to the Netherlands earlier in the year I picked the 4 highest rated courses in the country for our 4 rounds and frankly I'm not sure why I wouldn't have as long as they worked logistically.


I would like to think that over the next few years/decades I will get to see a lot of the best courses in the world for my pleasure and enjoyment. I literally go out of my way to play great golf courses but see plenty of other wonderful courses on the way.


It also seems a little much to berate people who decide to pursue a dream of ticking off a list. It may not be your idea of time well spent but there's a lot worse they could be doing!

[Lou_Duran]

It also seems a little much to berate people who decide to pursue a dream of ticking off a list. It may not be your idea of time well spent but there's a lot worse they could be doing![/font]

I don't know David, the individual berated is a champion berator who single-handedly keeps his thread alive.  Maybe he deserves a tiny bit of berating. 

Agree with your comments.  Lists provide direction and unless you have the strongest of networks, they don't preclude you from exploring other courses in an area.

I am also with Tommy in that I too have lost my desire to chase the list.  Perhaps it has to do with age and the realization that perhaps number 71 or 91 may not be that much new or different than what you saw at 21 or 41.

There are half-dozen or so courses I would very much like to play before the gig is up, and I will make a strong effort to make it happen.  There are another 15-20 including some new ones popping up that I will try to get to if I am in the area, but few if any that I would grovel for.

I often get as big of a kick playing a second or third-tier course in a new area I am visiting as with the course everyone wants to play when they're in town.   For one thing, I typically feel more welcomed.  Of course, cost is also a factor- my days of paying $500 to play one round of golf are pretty much over with.

[Tim Martin]

I began my quest to complete the Golf Magazine world 100 after a student finished up in South Africa in 1995.  We agreed there were courses that ranked way off, and so I began adding to the 40 or so already played.  My quest slowed as I found so many really great courses that were not top 100 contenders, but must plays.  Each year, my must plays get in the way of flying to somewhere for a one and done when one area is full of greats needing my play and replay!  I probably am up in the middle of to high 80's on the list, and am even more convinced about certain misrankings.  I am bothered how Engineers is unranked and Maidstone is way over need.  As for Engineers, when I worked there, we only had a couple rankers who played the course in over2 hours because they seemed to be sandwiching it between Creek and PRC or dinner out East.  One rater who played in 1:27 according to our starter, mistaked the 11th for the 2 or 20 because he parked his cart left of 13/14 and missed the green behind, even though there always was a flag in place.  As for Maidstone, in a world ranking context, can it really be legitimately ranked ahead of Deal, Baltray, Rennaisance, Fornby, and Rye?  I know the reason, but unfortunately, thos knuckleheads really are perverting the rankings!

Robert-Spot on analysis of Engineers and agreed that it is every bit the equal of or more compelling than Maidstone. When you get to the first green at Engineers you know you are in for something special and as the round progresses it’s tough to wipe the smile off your face. Herbert Strong built some very bold golf holes and I am intrigued by the lore that Dev Emmet was hired five or six years after Engineers opened to “soften” some of the greens.

[Jud_T]

I’m kind of with Pat on this one.  If you’ve got the cash and connections and can get it done without being an annoying access whore, great.  The thing is once you’ve played a significant number of good courses you should have a pretty good idea of your interests, taste and aesthetic preference.  If you’d still rather play that last Fazio to fill a list instead of that Langford 9-holer, well that’s just kind of sad.

[BHoover]

I’m kind of with Pat on this one.  If you’ve got the cash and connections and can get it done without being an annoying access whore, great.  The thing is once you’ve played a significant number of good courses you should have a pretty good idea of your interests, taste and aesthetic preference.  If you’d still rather play that last Fazio to fill a list instead of that Langford 9-holer, well that’s just kind of sad.

I agree with you. If you can do it and have the desire to do so, and you don’t come across as annoying in the process, more power to you. But if, in the process, you label it as some sort of a “quest”, continually refer to yourself in the third person, and throw out the term “dumb azz” every chance you get (not to mention ridiculously irrelevant photos or videos), then you should turn that term on yourself.

[Peter Pallotta]

There's no love lost between Shulzie and me, but even I can't understand the harshness of these criticisms, or how folks can  feel justified in making their mocking jabs so public? Why - 'cause he posts on/adds to his own thread, about an enjoyable process-goal he's set for himself?
Wow - tough crowd.
P

[Ally Mcintosh]

I never had designs on any World Top-100 list although I certainly have a desire to see quite a few more architecturally significant courses around the world.


At one point, I did always try and play golf courses on the Golf World GB&I Top-200 whenever I could. But even that is waning whenever I organise golf weekends for my friends, probably because I just go researching anyway and this always throws up more info than any singular ranking list.


I agree entirely with Tom’s post.


All that being said, Bill’s thread is different and he appears to be different. And for that reason, I’m good with it: I tend to check out his updates although his C&C’s worst holes thread is a better one.


Ally

[Tony_Muldoon]

I really don’t mind what people do with their own time and money and I really enjoy Shultszie's thread.

I get the bit about the challenge, the I’m going to make this happen.  I know a guy (always a male?) who’s thing is seeing Opera live. If he hasn’t seen it before (150+ and counting) and it’s in a new House, he’s planning that trip and building more around it.  About 18 months ago   he noticed that the first two completed Operas of Richard Wagner were going to have rare performances in Eastern Europe the next spring. He set himself the task of seeing all 14 Wagner Operas, in the order they were composed, within 12 months. This ticked a lot of boxes for him and he also felt he’d understand Wagner’s artistic development a lot better after it.  It was his own challenge to himself.
 
But what I can’t understand is why anyone would set themselves the challenge to play a list from a magazine? From all we know these are at best compromises, from a bunch of anonymous guy whose tastes we know little about. Why do their collected opinions matter?  Isn’t there a lot of ‘validating’ going on here? 
 
So I’m a reasonably well off guy (fit the mould) and I have some friends and clients who are very ‘well to do’ and all the art the art you see on their walls has one thing in common. It is ‘validated’ by others. By e.g.  Sotheby’s or by the name on the painting.  And frankly some of it is RUBBISH! (IMO of course). But they lack the confidence to hang what really appeals to them (That is if they are interested in Art as anything more than a speculative asset).  But when they show you round, it’s a talking point and its implied that having some validated art on their wall shows them in a good light as a man of wealth and taste.
 
But once you realise it’s all subjective why play all of a list if it has several courses by an architect that you decide you can’t stand?  Unless of course you don’t actually have a personal opinion on architecture, in which case teeing it up anywhere will do and I would choose the weather I’m playing in, over the location any day.
 
PS one other thing.  From what I’ve read this necessarily involves a lot of solo travel and possibly plays.  Again not to my taste, but as I said at the start, to each his own.
So confession time I have my own list. To play all 14 of the courses The Open Championship has been played on. For me it ticks at least two boxes, history and links golf. So far only Carnoustie eludes me.  Once that’s done, I think I’ll need a new one…we’ll see.
 
PS My friend didn’t do that trip.  One of those first two clashed with a family occasion and he made the right decision.  He’s still looking to make it happen though. I believe he'll do it.

[JMEvensky]

There's no love lost between Shulzie and me, but even I can't understand the harshness of these criticisms, or how folks can  feel justified in making their mocking jabs so public? Why - 'cause he posts on/adds to his own thread, about an enjoyable process-goal he's set for himself?
Wow - tough crowd.
P

I've never understood the enmity either--there's probably some envy involved.


I think following any Top Whatever list blindly is just as misguided as ignoring them completely. But why diss someone for doing what he enjoys?

[Rich Goodale]

Bingo, JM!


I lived 90+ days in a summer in Europe when I was in my mid-20's and didn't play much golf.  I spent a month of that gig Euro railing and visiting the top 20 or so zoos and museums.  Now, many years later, I sometimes wonder why, but the memories mostly raise a smile on my face....


R

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