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Jon Heise

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2018, 09:47:55 PM »
John, these are great.  Thanks for sharing.  There's relatively little imagery of these on the net, so it's good to see your tour.  Morfontaine's been one of the top 5 "want to plays" for me forever...
I still like Greywalls better.

John Mayhugh

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2018, 07:37:37 AM »
David,Good assumption. I'll get to Hardelot and Touquet in a few days. Traveling.
I didn't play Chantilly under the same conditions that you mention, but there was more of a "championship course" feel to it than any of the others that I played. That's probably intentional.

JonThere's a pretty complete photo tour of Morfontaine on GCA posted some years back.

David Jones

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2018, 12:19:06 PM »
Some lovely photos here and great observations. Paris is a really rich area for a trip.


I too found Les Bordes a little over-hyped. It was immaculate but brutal. They sold two types of golf ball behind the bar - Prov 1s popular with the visitors and yellow Wilson Ultras that were used by the members. Why lose a 4 euro ball when a 1 euro ball will last just as long?!


We played Fontainebleau on a barmy early summer evening and with the setting sun coming through the many trees it was a magical experience. Without a doubt it wouldn't have suffered with taking a few trees out but equally it didn't feel in need of emergency surgery to make it enjoyable.


Morfontaine is a good couple of rungs up the ladder but Fontainebleau is must-play for any trip to the area, and a darn sight more accessible!

Steve Okula

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2018, 02:51:37 PM »
John,



FWIW we have Chantilly as #2 though I personally have it closer to 5 on my France list. Les Bordes is another that was long rated #1 in France and Europe by many. Not something I've ever agreed with. But with Hanse now developing a new course there that will be uber private I'll bet with that property it ends up being something great and an almost sure standout in France.


Hanse is doing a new course in France? I hadn't heard about that. When you say "there", do you mean at Les Bordes?
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2018, 03:01:45 PM »
John,



FWIW we have Chantilly as #2 though I personally have it closer to 5 on my France list. Les Bordes is another that was long rated #1 in France and Europe by many. Not something I've ever agreed with. But with Hanse now developing a new course there that will be uber private I'll bet with that property it ends up being something great and an almost sure standout in France.


Hanse is doing a new course in France? I hadn't heard about that. When you say "there", do you mean at Les Bordes?


He does. It hasn't been officially announced yet but Gil let slip on his Instagram feed that he was on site at Les Bordes last week doing the routing for the new course.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Pete Lavallee

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2018, 03:36:00 PM »
John,

As usual you give the viewer the true flavor with just a handful of photos, Bravo.

How accessible are the courses you have featured for those of us who aren't PGA Pros or Raters?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

David Jones

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2018, 03:45:10 PM »
John,



FWIW we have Chantilly as #2 though I personally have it closer to 5 on my France list. Les Bordes is another that was long rated #1 in France and Europe by many. Not something I've ever agreed with. But with Hanse now developing a new course there that will be uber private I'll bet with that property it ends up being something great and an almost sure standout in France.


Hanse is doing a new course in France? I hadn't heard about that. When you say "there", do you mean at Les Bordes?


He does. It hasn't been officially announced yet but Gil let slip on his Instagram feed that he was on site at Les Bordes last week doing the routing for the new course.


There's a bit on the Les Bordes site now -


https://www.lesbordes.com/

'Les Bordes is now adding a second course designed by Gil Hanse, the architect of some of the world’s most prestigious new designs and restorations. The classic heathland course is scheduled for completion by 2020 and will be Gil’s first Continental European golf course'.



Classic Heathland sounds good, I can only imagine the contrast with the current course there!

David Kelly

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2018, 06:07:24 PM »

I don't know what can be done with the trees at Fontainebleau.  I agree a serious pruning is in order but as the course is situated in the Forest of Fontainebleau and has protected status I don't know to what extent trees can be cut or removed, if at all. 

Having been on this trip with John I can say that it is one of the most enjoyable golf trips you can take.  If you are willing to drive an hour or two a day all of the courses John has detailed so far have the added attraction of being able to be played in the day while you spend your nights in Paris (if you can find a way to park your car).



"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

John Mayhugh

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2018, 12:50:17 PM »
Pete,
Other than Morfontaine, I believe you can arrange play at any of the others, though you may need to play on a weekday.

John Mayhugh

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2018, 12:52:08 PM »
 Golf de Belle Dune
 Mixed in with the classics, we also visited a modern course in the area – Golf de Belle Dune.  The course is a little more than 20 years old, and designed by Jean-Manuel Rossi.  It alternates between awesome and amateurish, but is completely original.  There are some really clever features and great land, but overall I think these get marred by less appealing ones such as trees in odd places.
 
Some beautiful links land, with one clear indication how near you are to the sea.
bdDSC09644 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
bdDSC09655 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
Too narrow in spots, some odd trees, and also a number of very good holes, especially in the dunes. I wouldn’t skip a day at Hardelot or Touquet to play Belle Dune, but it’s certainly something different.
DSC09665 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
DSC09629 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
DSC09643 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 

John Mayhugh

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2018, 08:41:21 AM »
 Golf d’Hardelot Les Pins
 Tom Simpson once wrote that “it is only the mad masterpieces that remain in the memory,” and I’ve seen a few examples of what he refers to. Fellow GCA posters Frank Pont and Patrice Boissonnas have been restoring Hardelot Les Pins, so I was eager to see it. 
 
 Some time back, Frank posted a good photo thread from Hardelot, and he and Patrice describe some of the work that they did. Unfortunately, the photo links no longer work, but it’s still good reading about their efforts.Frank’s website also describes some of their work and has a few wonderful photos.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58548.0.html
 
http://www.infinitevarietygolf.com/projects-hardelot-1.html
 
 
There was also this article in Golf Course Architecture.
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/pont-and-boissonnas-rejuvenate-les-pins-course-at-hardelot-2
 
 
 Even though the course is set in a pine forest, it does not feel constrained.  The expansion of playing corridors brings out the flair of the design, and you feel free to play away from the center of the fairway, just as Simpson would have wanted.  Hardelot feels like it should play linksy, and I believe the team has continued to work to overcome years of water and fertilizer.
 
 As you might expect, Hardelot has great green sites, and our appreciation of those starts early with the 1st.  This medium length par 5 has three interesting shots thanks to use of the terrain and well-placed bunkers.  I think it’s also easy to see here how much the Simpson style bunkering enhances the look of the hole.
hDSC09798 by john mayhugh, on Flickr

 
 
 Looking at the 4th from behind, note how avoiding the bunker front right can bring the small green “tongue” into play.  The runoff there may be a worse result than hitting in the bunker, especially given the tilt of the green.  Green expansion like this doesn’t seem like a major change, but has a significant impact on the playing of the hole.
DSC09817 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
 The 5th (shown from behind) is a gorgeous par 3.   
DSC09820 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
 At the 8th, Simpson shows that restraint also works rather nicely.  This is one of the smallest greens, and short grass combined with the slopes makes the hole rather more difficult than it looks.  A good example of Simpson wanting to make a hole look easier than it plays.
DSC09830 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
 
 You can just make out the flag in the middle left of this photo from the 9th.  The green is mostly in a straight line from the tee, but the hole plays almost as a double dogleg par 4!  About 450 yards, it’s one tough par 4 that can be made easier by taking on more of the bunkering.  This one takes a few plays to feel even slightly comfortable from the tee.
DSC09831 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
 From behind the 9th.  The forest effectively guards this green from approaches made from the wrong part of the fairway.
DSC09834 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
 
 The short par 4 11th might temp longer hitters to have a go at the green, but results could be frustrating.
hDSC09844 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
 The 14th green was completely rebuilt as it was not a Simpson original.  I think this could pass nicely for one.
 DSC09854 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
 The wild green on the par 3 15th benefitted greatly from expansion.  The runoff areas front and back don’t necessarily make the hole play easier, but do make it a lot more interesting. 
 DSC09861 by john mayhugh, on Flickr

 
 Some exposed dune on the par 3 17th.  My eye was more drawn to the drop off on the left.  The safe play is not appealing.
 hDSC09876 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
   
Patrice & Frank have done wonderful work at Hardelot les Pins, and I think firmer conditions also make it a candidate for one of the best courses on the Continent.  The bunkers become even more relevant hazards, and the player gets many more options.  This course, too, would feel right at home in the UK.
 
For those of us that pay attention to rankings, seems like the work at Hardelot (and Le Touquet, which will be covered last) is paying off.


 [size=0pt]https://www.landmark-media.com/news/le-touquet-golf-resort-golf-dhardelot-new-european-top-100-ranking[/size]

ward peyronnin

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2018, 02:21:00 PM »
John thanks for sharing. I love the look of these Colt courses and the sculptural affect of the land forms incorporated. Please don't forget Le Hardelot which is a magical place on the coast of Normandy

"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Jason Topp

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2018, 04:17:27 PM »
I always enjoy the unique details John includes on his tours.


Has anyone played Golf du Tourquet - Le Mer?


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/le-touquet-la-mer




ward peyronnin

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2018, 07:29:46 PM »
Sorry I somehow missed the second page when posting. La Mer is rather good Jason suffering from Nazi desecration installinf landing strips on the back side but one can see German beach fortifications and there are stunning views from spots on top of these massive ( length and height) dunes. The boutique hotel on property is worth the money; truly Old Euro understated class
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

John Mayhugh

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2018, 07:36:37 AM »
Jason,

A few photos of Touquet La Mer in the next day or so.  Here's a short feature from CNN earlier this year. Discussion from Le Touquet starts at about the 14 minute mark.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/sports/2018/09/05/golf-in-france-ryder-cup-snow-golf-alex-levy-le-touquet-living-golf-vision-spt-intl.cnn

John Mayhugh

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2018, 12:29:33 PM »
 Le Touquet La Mer
This tour of French golf courses concludes with Colt’s Le Touquet La Mer. With the course dramatically changed by WWII and subsequent changes, Boissonnas & Pont have worked to restore it to grandeur. Works were in progress when I visited in 2014, and from the looks of the CNN tour link above and photos I’ve seen, they have done a wonderful job. I go back and forth between whether I prefer Hardelot or Touquet. Touquet is a bolder piece of land, which always appeals to me. Easy answer – be sure to spend a day at both.
 
As we would expect from a Colt course, some fine par 3s.
tDSC09705 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
tDSC09729 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
tDSC09742 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
Frank & Patrice built a couple of new greens that fit in nicely with the Colt originals.
tDSC09749 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
tDSC09762 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
Some great land for golf.
tDSC09717 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
tDSC09752 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
Practicality
tDSC09740 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
Who could resist following this sign?
tDSC09783 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
tDSC09784 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
tDSC09785 by john mayhugh, on Flickr
 
 
 
 
Here’s the description of the work from Frank’s website, along with some good photos:
http://www.infinitevarietygolf.com/projects-touquet-1.html
 
Patrice’s is a bit more challenging for me to read, but the old photos are worth a look!
http://www.patriceboissonnas.com/portfolio/golf-du-touquet-la-mer/


 
This trip to France was very golf-oriented, but I am fortunate to have been to France a number of times that didn’t include golf. As David noted, with so much great golf in the Paris area, it’s easy to balance culture and golf. The courses are certainly worth the effort.





 

Cristian

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2018, 12:52:34 PM »

In fact massive tree removal has taken place a few years ago at Fontainebleau. I visited last year, some ten years after my first play, and the difference was huge. This should explain the different opinions the two of you have: it is a different course now, even if it could use some more pruning! In combo with the excellent clubhouse experience a must play when in Paris; the club is very welcoming to visitors.

Thanks for posting those great photos John.

But I disagree with your opinion on the trees at Fontainebleau. It's been years since I played there, and I can't recall the details, but my lasting impression was that the course would be immeasruably improved by taking out a thousand or so trees. They narrowed the course and took away all kinds of lines of play that were the architect's intent. With the right tree management, it would definitely contend with Morfontaine at the top of the rankings.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 01:00:05 PM by Cristian »

Thomas Dai

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2018, 01:05:37 PM »
Thanks for highlighting these courses that I don’t much about and for posting the terrific photos. France isn’t a country that comes to mind immediately when good quality golf is raised. Looks like it maybe should be.
Atb

Adam Lawrence

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2018, 02:48:51 PM »
Le Touquet is in my opinion a very clear step ahead of Hardelot. Hardelot is close now to showing all it has to offer, whereas La Mer still has a way to go, but the scope is much greater at Touquet.


We discovered a contemporary article a few months ago (actually by John Morrison, who should have known) who said that Hugh Alison was in large measure responsible for La Mer. This makes a certain sense to me -- there is a degree of scale to the golf course that reminds of Alison's Royal Hague. You may notice that the resort has started giving joint credit to Colt and Alison.


It's a couple of years since I last saw La Mer; I'd like to get back. Frank showed me the original routing of the seventeenth hole, which would be a tremendous improvement if restored. I think La Mer will in time be recognised as a top ten European course.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mike Sweeney

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2018, 07:20:22 PM »
John,


Fabulous post. We are talking about a Paris trip with Dusty in the next year and this is really appreciated.


Bravo Zulu
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

BCrosby

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2018, 04:26:38 AM »
Good thread.

I have just played Morfontaine (both the 'grand parcour' and Valliere) and Doak's St Emilionnais. The latter twice. Both have suffered from the recent drought, but both are magnificent. I would be hard pressed to rank Morfontaine's grand parcour higher than Doak's St.E.

The Valliere 9, however, is in a category all its own. I suspect that somebody let Simpson be Simpson on what was probably meant as a relief nine. The club secretary pointed out to me that the 7th and 8th holes were relocated a couple of decades ago due to flooding. The members note that fact by saying it is the best 7 holes in golf.  :)

The greens and their surrounds are what make Valliere so special. (The French refer to them as "vert anime" (accent on the final 'e')). A great way to express the idea.

Though a bit tamer than those on the Valliere course, Tom D's St Emilion greens are fascinating from the first to the last. Some have enormous contours that effectively narrow otherwise generous fairways. Playing Morfontaine and St Emilion back to back I was struck by how much Simpson and TD have in common.

I would also guess that TD's St. E. is also a pretty good model for the 6200 yard course he is designing for Sand Valley. We played St. E. from about 6400 yards and it was all we could handle.  If ever in the Bordeaux region, don't miss it.

Bob
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 01:48:30 PM by BCrosby »

John Mayhugh

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2018, 12:18:25 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the comments. Hopefully some will be inspired to take clubs to France.

Lou_Duran

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2018, 09:47:25 AM »
Damn it John, I already had France written off since Morfontaine appears to be beyond my reaches and I am so bad with languages.  Can you suggest a weeklong itinerary with maybe 5-6 courses and enough time to look at the sights?

John Mayhugh

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2018, 01:17:44 PM »
Lou,
I'm not a good person to suggest itineraries as I tend to over-schedule. Course wise, you couldn't go wrong with:
Paris area - private clubs that are open to visitor play during the week.
St. GermainFontainebleauChantilly - take time to visit the chateau nearby
If you're golf oriented, take a two hour trip up towards Calais and play Le Touquet La Mer and Hardelot Les Pins.

The other great option is a four hour drive to Normandy to see D Day sights and then play at Granville. I haven't played there, but really wanted to. Just ran out of time.





Lou_Duran

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Re: An alternative look at golf in France
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2018, 09:36:37 AM »
Thanks John.   I suffer from the same affliction- either my eyes are too big or, as my wife tells me, I underestimate the time it takes to do most things- but I typically need to rest up after a golf trip.  Maybe seven days on the ground with three or four courses as samplers should suffice.

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