Are we evangelists?

[Tim Gallant]

The Michigan thread got me thinking: are we golf architecture evangelists?


What I mean is, I am sure we all have a group of buddies that we play golf with who are less architecturally inclined. Do we do our best to help them 'see the light', or do we just carry on with the status quo?


And, if we do our best to subtly or not so subtly help them see architectural sense, what is the best way to do this?

[Rich Goodale]

Hard to say, particularly one who has never golfed his ball in Michigan, but....


The "evangelist" meme came from George Bahto and/or Gib Papazian, and related to Chuckie Mac all of whom (except Gib) are sadly defunct.  I do not see any "evangelists" on this site now, just a very good and friendly group of golfing people.  That's OK for me.........

[Ira Fishman]

Tim,


Unfortunately, I have found that for my friends who are of a similar age--60-70--it is very difficult to convince them to try a course that has done have a strong brand in the media/rankings.  I can extol the virtues of courses, share links from gca.com, and explain how a course is convenient to a big name course, etc.  However, it is understandable--my friends are at the stage in life where they can travel, but they have so many trips that they can take so they want to hit the brand names while they can.  And they have a great time on their trips so who am I to look down upon them?  They like golf, and they are having fun.


On the positive side, the media/rankings branding is changing.  They all have been or want to go to Bandon and Streamsong; by next year, Sand Valley will be on the list.  Alas, my love for Mid Pines and Pine Needles and Brora and Golspie probably will not get shared by them.


Ira

[Rick Lane]

Evangelist may be strong as it to me infers expertise, which a lot of you may have, but I do not.....Enthusiast?   For sure I am that, and yes, I am one of the people in my circle of friends who talks about architecture, hole designs, routings, trees, forced carries, angles, width, history, etc etc.   I would say my close circle of golfing friends are all enthusiasts in this regard....whether we are at home or traveling.....its core to the conversations we have...

[Kalen Braley]

Rick, Interesting it brings to mind expertise for you.  Its definitely mostly negative for me in the context of a preacher keeping the sheep in line, or heaven forbid the self-righteous charlatans on TV fleecing the flock...

[John Emerson]

I’m not sure if I call myself an evangelist but I do preach the good word of golf to anyone and everyone that will listen.  I especially enjoy going to a course alone and being paired up with strangers.  I try to subtly educate them on agronomy, turf, design and architecture.  My specialty is agronomy but I always find a way to blend architecture and turf together to someone who doesn’t have a clue about either.  I LOVE LOVE LOVE to preach about this beloved game of ours to any open ear! 

[John Emerson]

And somehow or another during the round I throw out the suggestion...”you guys wanna move up a tee box???” 😝

[Tim Gallant]

Kalen,


Exactly - my mind didn't wander to the expert route. From a christian standpoint, I suppose all are called to be evangelists in one way - whether through actions or words. Don't want to head down that rabbit hole, but borrowing the term with that definition, I think of it in a golf sense as someone who is overly enthusiastic about golf architecture to the point where their passion is almost infectious.


This could take on many different forms - it could be by scheduling a normal golf trip with friends at more architecturally sound spots, or it could be encouraging friends on the greens committee to read a favourite book of yours - maybe The Anatomy of Golf Courses by T Doak. Or maybe just in chance conversations.


Interested in how others have 'evangelised' good golf course architecture even at a small group level. Surely Zac B and Andy J are modern evangelists (in the best sense) for good golf course architecture?

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,


I agree with your last post, and I like the enthusiastic part, although being overly so can present it challenges.  A number of years ago, I was getting into architecture stuff with my buds during a round, and on the back 9 one of them stops me mid-sentence, and says "We get it, now shut the F up and golf your ball" 


P.S.  I like the word Ambassador a bit more than Evangelist in the context of this thread..

[Peter Flory]

I think that as a whole, it is true.  Just the existence of this site with the backlog of topics and discussions got me way more interested in the topic and in a deeper way than I otherwise would have been.  I discovered it when I was initially researching Bandon Dunes to see what all the fuss was. 

[David Davis]

Tim,


I would say yes to the way you phrased it in the last post. However, the passion for and study of has had a greater affect on the circle of friends in my network as opposed to carrying golf buddies into the architectural interest space. At a certain point depending on your surrounding "preaching and enthusiasm" fall onto deaf ears and in my case I then revert to discussion and golf with people in most cases that have an innate interest in or are people I respect as "experts" in some aspect of GCA even if it's only their level of enthusiasm and thought they put into it. If someone asks then sure, with warning of Pandoras Box being opened but otherwise I'm not trying to force the horse to drink if it's not thirsty.

[A.G._Crockett]

Perhaps "evangelists" is too strong.  Perhaps "geeks" would be better?
I kid only slightly.  For a long time, I was always sort of surprised at the dedicated, passionate golfers who just weren't interested in the GCA of a particular course that we were playing, but I've come to assume that I'll only find someone who IS interested at about the same frequency that Halley's Comet roars thru the kitchen while I'm making dinner.

[Dan Gallaway]

After reading through the 147 Custodians, I've been searching for the Rosetta Stone for my friends.  The accessible course, with a reasonable price, that is an easy trip, and doesn't interfere with their ability to play the brand name course they see on tv.  The course that will convey the sense of architecture to my buddies without the normal objections:  Why would I play Sand Valley when I can go to Whistling Straights (or Streamsong vs. Sawgrass/Doral, etc)...Dude, it's in the middle of nowhere....Vegas man!  Its got tons of courses!


It seems like We-Ko-Pa might be the answer.  While they all want to play TPC, at least they don't have to change hotel rooms.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I used to be somewhat of an evangelist for gca, but as a Lutheran, evangelist carries some pejorative overtones. That said, I keep my opinions to myself with most friends who don't care about the architecture only the conditions. I was cured a few years ago when I went on a golf trip with two very close friends. As we walked each of the fairways, I'd extol this virtue or question that bunker. What I didn't know was they'd tell each other, "You walk with Tom for a while." They got tired of the gca talk and didn't care. They only cared about their score.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Many years ago, I started a thread asking if gca.com and its members were trying to be "tastemakers."  IIRC, the general response was heck yeah!

[Garland Bayley]

... They only cared about their score.

They must be heathen.

[Peter Pallotta]

Well, to keep the analogy going: we have a mixed bag here - an early church father or two, some minor prophets, a smattering of heretics, a growing number of apostates, more than a few fundamentalists, quite a lot of know-it-alls and would-be presbyters, and (too) many a respecter of persons. Thankfully, though, there has yet to be even a single martyr...   

[Sean_A]

You evangelize with your wallet.  If I organize, it will certainly be courses I want to play and I won't take into account what others want. They can play or not.  If someone else organizes I am much less picky except for cost, but will sometimes give games/trips a miss because I am not interested in the courses. Usually, its really a matter of trees, grassing lines and drainage which turns me to evangelizing. 

I will say that the last place I got down on for purely architectural reasons was the Himalayas course at Princes.  The entire group was in agreement to disliking the Florida links results and to a man said they would be happy to play the other two nines in a heartbeat.  These guys get it more than the stuck up gca lot which slams Princes! Score!  Moral of the story...we ain't no smarter than anybody else.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

These guys get it more than the stuck up gca lot which slams Princes! Score!  Moral of the story...we ain't no smarter than anybody else.

Ciao

Can you point me to where anyone ever slammed Princes on here? Lukewarmth? Maybe. "It's not as good as Deal and Sandwich"? Sure. Plenty who haven't played it because their trip time was limited and so they focused on the big fish? Definitely.


Can't say I recall anyone ever slamming it.

[Sean_A]

Much like Dealies treat Deal, if ya don't praise Princes it is an effective slam   

To be honest, I do think Princes gets slighted because of Sandwich and Deal next door.  Just as I think Littlestone gets slighted because of Rye and to a lesser extent Sandwich and Deal.   

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Much like Dealies treat Deal, if ya don't praise Princes it is an effective slam   

To be honest, I do think Princes gets slighted because of Sandwich and Deal next door.  Just as I think Littlestone gets slighted gets slighted because of Rye and to a lesser extent Sandwich and Deal.   

Ciao

It's funny you mention Littlestone. I was re-reading A Course Called Scotland this week and when Tom Coyne was describing Littlestone, I wondered to myself why the hell in two years in the general vicinity, I never played it.


I think Princes suffers from not knowing -- or not wanting to declare, at least -- what its primary 18 is. If people went there and played Dunes/Shore knowing it's the big show, I think the response would be more consistent and more positive. If you've got folks playing 18 and half of that is the Hims, they're obviously not seeing the best Princes has to offer.

[mike_malone]

I’m more a pain in the ass.

[Sean_A]

Much like Dealies treat Deal, if ya don't praise Princes it is an effective slam   

To be honest, I do think Princes gets slighted because of Sandwich and Deal next door.  Just as I think Littlestone gets slighted gets slighted because of Rye and to a lesser extent Sandwich and Deal.   

Ciao

It's funny you mention Littlestone. I was re-reading A Course Called Scotland this week and when Tom Coyne was describing Littlestone, I wondered to myself why the hell in two years in the general vicinity, I never played it.

I think Princes suffers from not knowing -- or not wanting to declare, at least -- what its primary 18 is. If people went there and played Dunes/Shore knowing it's the big show, I think the response would be more consistent and more positive. If you've got folks playing 18 and half of that is the Hims, they're obviously not seeing the best Princes has to offer.

Scott

Why was Coyne describing Littlestone in A Course Called Scotland?

I agree with you...Princes hedges its bets by not creating two separate courses with the Shore/Dunes as the 18 holer....its a bad hedge because any sort of event traditionally uses the Shore/Dunes combo and everybody knows this.  That said, they now have 9 hole rates which is very clever and I suspect a way to get more play on the inferior Himalayas...which the club may also try out as part of the "championship course" in the future because of all the water.

Ok, so I also evangelize against multiple 9 hole facilities as separate 9s unless they are truly equal. 

I also evangelize in declaring the best links golf in GB&I is to be had in southeast England. There is no area on these islands that I know which can compete with Sandwich, Deal, Rye, Princes and Littlestone.  People get bamboozled by the myths of Scotland and the beauty of Ireland, but the best golf is ever so close to Gatwick airport.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

You should read it to find out. I suspect you would really like it. As far as evangelism for links golf goes, it’s some of the best I’ve read.


Mark Chaplin makes an early cameo, but you shouldn’t hold that against the book!

[Peter Pallotta]

Maybe Ran should 'nail' a new tab to the top of the page,  'The 95 Theses'. It might settle this Princes-Deal debate, or at least make a strong case against the use of indulgences excessive width.