[Michael Wolf]

Cypress Point is maybe the most photographed course in the world. Pebble Beach's tweaks are on display every January and then again every ten years or so when it hosts a USGA event in the summer. MPCC's 36 have been renovated and discussed. Pasatiempo is regularly praised. And Spyglass is debated. But what about Spanish Bay!


It sits in a great location on a great piece of land. Obviously it's birth was greatly effected by legal and environmental challenges that needed to be accommodated. But why has that been the end of the story?


With Pinehurst, Sand Vally and others getting creative with their resort offerings, wouldn't Spanish Bay be a perfect spot for experimenting on Monterey? A quirky par 68, or 9 great holes, or something else I'm not clever enough to think of? Seems like the perfect spot to turn environmental lemons into lemonade, with something fresh and fun just a few steps from a great hotel and one of the worlds great views?


This landlocked southerner would appreciate feedback from well versed West Coasters.


Michael

[Tim Leahy]

The problem with SB is because of the great location they can over charge without having to do anything. They have great rentals and a hotel along with very good restaurants. It is public and $200 cheaper than PB, $100 cheaper than Spyglass so they get enough golfers who put up with bs off limit nature areas and less than championship set ups. They also package the course with PB and SGH so golfers can get a great course experience along with SB. Why put any money or time into a cash cow already making money?

[Terry Lavin]

Spanish Bay followed by an “!” is oxymoronic.

[Adam Clayman]

My guess is that they are locked in, because of all the BS environmental hoops they had to go through to get it there. And, management at Pebble aligns themselves with the Augusta National pathos of disrespecting golden age architecture. But a Jones, Miller & Watson, they leave alone. They are terrible stewards of a national treasure. The Japanese owners were 10 billion times better.

[mike_beene]

Humor me a little: I have probably played 15 rounds there over the years(mostly back when Sony was the starter at Pebble and would get semi regulars who frequented Pebble on and we would run over to Spanish for a twilight rate.)I always enjoyed it. Yes it was sometimes soft and routed up and back and later around the parking lot. Yes it could have been more, but if you can't have fun , really fun, on that golf course you have first worlditis. I love the bagpipes at St Andrews but these are equally wonderful. Don't hit it in the dunes. If it's dark when you finish, just walk to the light. I would rather spend a day there than the last 12 at Spyglass wearing out my three wood.
And that place has never looked down on walkers.Could it be improved, oh yes. We are lucky people.

[Lou_Duran]

Who hacked Mr. Beene's gca.com account?  Except for the lack of love for Spyglass, a course I liked more every time I played it, I agree 100%.  We shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  And how many of us really know what design opportunities were missed?

Many years ago I had a long conversation with SB's superintendent about day-to-day operations and some of the rough cut-lines.  What he went through from a regulatory standpoint just to maintain the course is mind-boggling.  Under near-constant surveillance by folks who see golf as the enemy of the environment, God forbid that one of his workers puts a wheel in an "environmental sensitive" area when mowing in the dark and damages or cuts what are essentially common, ubiquitous weeds that other people pay big money to eradicate.

Adam,

I don't understand your last two sentences.  I was under the impression that Jones Jr. was the quintessential environmentally-aware architect and that Sandy Tatum and Tom Watson were closely involved in the design.  Did Johnnie Miller play a role?

As to Pebble Beach, after being terribly mistreated by the staff back in the early to mid-80s and pledging to never return, I acquiesced when my son invited me for a few rounds in the peninsula 3-4 years ago.  I saw a much improved course in nearly every respect and the customer service was outstanding.  If you care to expand on their stewardship, I'd like to learn of your objections.

A problem with the resort is how ultra-expensive it is.  One can easily spend $1500/day, which, in my book, is obscene.   Of course, many years back I was responsible for the sale of a large resort in Spain's Costa del Sol.  The buffet brunch at the beach club was over €100 (mid-'90s) and it catered to a very special, repeat clientele.  The GM at the major hotel once told me of a man who'd been visiting for 30+ years, each time depositing €20-40k (in pesetas before) with instructions to let him know when the money was about to run out.  Sometimes he would replenish the account; other times he would vacate.  It would be a kick to do the same at Pebble Beach- sign for everything and leave when the account approximates $0.  I would play 6 rounds out of 10 at Pebble, and 2 each at the Glass and SB.  Of course, I would lobby hard for an introduction at CPC, but I've given up on that.

[Rich Goodale]

SB is OK golf-wise, but if you are into dumping benjis all over the place do it at Pebble and stay at SB.  Much better place than the Lodge.

[Lou_Duran]

SB is OK golf-wise, but if you are into dumping benjis all over the place do it at Pebble and stay at SB.  Much better place than the Lodge.

Concur.  The Inn is actually a pleasant, unassuming place.  One of our friends is an annual visitor and he gets some freebies- our round at Spyglass was comped.   I think the room was $50-$100 cheaper and much nicer than the Lodge.   We did spend too much time around the pit, which with appetizers and drinks, more than offset any savings.

[Kalen Braley]

I will 3rd this.  The PB area feels very overrun all the time, non-stop, whereas SB can at least quiet down a bit in the evening. And the beach area is much easier to access...

[Scott Weersing]

Would Spanish Bay be a good course for a renovation?  The could make it into a reversible course or make it a shorter course.


Or would Spanish Bay be in the category of worst course on the best land? It could join Sand Pines in the category.

[Adam Clayman]

Lou, I honestly don't remember who gets attribution. I almost gave Jones all the credit but remember that there were others involved.


As for the stewardship, I was referring to the alterations made to PB. Sacrilege. And the 10 billion was in Yen.

[Lou_Duran]

As for the stewardship, I was referring to the alterations made to PB. Sacrilege. And the 10 billion was in Yen.

Adam,

I think you know that I appreciate your insights into gca.  Perhaps in part because you caddied at some outstanding courses and weren't focused on your game, you see things that I miss (like at Black Mesa where you pointed to a line some 150° away from the hole, up a slope and back down for a kick-in).

What specific alterations are you alluding to?  PB in the mid-80s was a course that had 3-4 world-class holes, a similar number of really good ones, and most of the rest that would forgettable nearly anywhere else.  I found a much more complete course during my visit a few years back as was the quality of the turf with much better drainage.   

[Rich Goodale]

Adam, as you probably know, Jones Jr. et. al. did most of the heavy lifting and Tom Watson and Sandy Tatum gave their signatures for more than a few simoleons.  The course was built on top of a working sand pit.  A great golf course could have been built there.  It was not.....

Lou, as per Pebble, I've played it 15 times or so from 1976-2013 and the only flaws I can remember from the 2013 visit are the Nicklaus changes of the 5th and 6th and the Palmer changes at the 13th, 14th and 15th, mostly adding bunkers where they were not needed, and the idiotic replacement of the pine tree short of the 18th green.m  That could have been a really great redan green finisher with today's technology.

Rich

[Lou_Duran]

Rich-

RE: SB, according to Watson, he and Tatum had a lot of involvement in design and playability matters, and also in selecting the grasses, including the fescue that ultimately failed (he said all the data indicated it was ideal for the local climate and the planned maintenance for the links-like course they were building).  The site had indeed been mined for its sand, and I am pretty sure it was totally depleted.  I have vague recollections of specially prepared temporary roads used by large trucks hauling material to the site.  To suggest that the site should have yielded a great course because of its ocean location does not take into consideration the CCC, numerous interveners, and abnormally high construction costs.  For sure, it will never be confused with a Royal Dornoch, but I've enjoyed my couple of rounds there very much.

RE: PB, old 5 with an OB fence a few feet to the left of the green a better hole than the Nicklaus replacement next to the ocean?  I think not.  Yep, the walk-back to 6 tee is a bit awkward, but the drainage is much improved and the bunkers in the landing area of the 2nd shot prevent just bailing out away from the cliff.  Don't remember that #13 green was so tightly bunkered before, specially in the front, and it is next to impossible for a weaker hitter to put enough on the ball and stop in on the putting surface.  The bunkers short of the green on the right side of 14 (with the steep R-t-L slope) make hitting the LS of the fairway a priority.   It is a short hole and precision should be demanded.  #15 LF greenside bunker makes the hole more equitable for the shorter hitter.  I saw the problem more with the steep slope of the RAG than the bunker itself. 

Cost considerations aside, I experienced a much superior course in 2015 than 30 years earlier.  The new greenside pine on 18 is an affectation, but I just don't see a Redan possibility there (nor a compelling reason for creating one).

[Niall C]

For what its worth, when friends and I did a golf trip to PB a couple of years ago we did the usual tourist thing and went for the obvious big names (to us) which meant SB got squeezed out in favour of Spyglass. As much as I enjoyed Spyglass with it's really nice opening holes, much of the round was uninspiring if perfectly pleasant.

As we were staying at the Inn at Spanish Bay (at least I think that is what it was called) I took the opportunity to walk SB with one of my pals and we both came to the conclusion that we should have played it instead of Spyglass. Mind you when we drove by the Pacific Grove course we thought the same thing.

Niall

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