Wind and Courses?

[Kalen Braley]

I recently saw a few posts on how opinions change for a course with or without wind, and I pondered the question. Should a course be considered great/exceptional if it takes a windy day to reveal its strategy, strengths, or charms otherwise?

I've played 3 courses with little to no wind I've thought were excellent/fantastic...Chambers Bay, Ballyneal, and Rock Creek.  I've also played countless of other courses in same conditions that I thought were just OK to good. And I think about other courses like Pebble and TOC, which I've never played, and they seem to look outstanding in any conditions.

So once again if a course needs to be played in wind to reveal its true nature could it or should it be considered great?

[Tom_Doak]

It depends on how windy the place is.  If calm conditions are relatively rare, then the course should be judged by how well it plays (or would play) in the wind.  If winds are rare, then you shouldn't judge a place too harshly based on the day the hurricane went through.


Places like Barnbougle and Bandon (and Muirfield) are extremely windy and the design has to be modified to allow for that, keeping bunkers away from the fronts of the greens to allow a shot downwind.  In calm conditions, it can look like they are too easy, but better to err on that side than to leave impossible approaches when it's blowing.


I saw Mike Clayton the other day and he said he had decided Barnbougle was actually more difficult in calm conditions, because the long holes play so much longer.  Maybe for him!  For most the wind has too much influence on our swings.

[Peter Pallotta]

If the stories are true about Mr. Hogan's real fondness for Seminole and if he did indeed use it as a tune-up for Augusta, I wonder if it was the calm Seminole or the persimmon-era Seminole or the windy Seminole that he so appreciated and valued. Maybe the winds of Seminole demanded the draws and fades of Augusta.

[James Brown]

It depends on how windy the place is.  If calm conditions are relatively rare, then the course should be judged by how well it plays (or would play) in the wind.  If winds are rare, then you shouldn't judge a place too harshly based on the day the hurricane went through.


Places like Barnbougle and Bandon (and Muirfield) are extremely windy and the design has to be modified to allow for that, keeping bunkers away from the fronts of the greens to allow a shot downwind.  In calm conditions, it can look like they are too easy, but better to err on that side than to leave impossible approaches when it's blowing.


I saw Mike Clayton the other day and he said he had decided Barnbougle was actually more difficult in calm conditions, because the long holes play so much longer.  Maybe for him!  For most the wind has too much influence on our swings.

I think many links courses are harder without some wind for the same reason, especially if they are not super firm. 

[Tim Gallant]

It depends on how windy the place is.  If calm conditions are relatively rare, then the course should be judged by how well it plays (or would play) in the wind.  If winds are rare, then you shouldn't judge a place too harshly based on the day the hurricane went through.


Places like Barnbougle and Bandon (and Muirfield) are extremely windy and the design has to be modified to allow for that, keeping bunkers away from the fronts of the greens to allow a shot downwind.  In calm conditions, it can look like they are too easy, but better to err on that side than to leave impossible approaches when it's blowing.


I saw Mike Clayton the other day and he said he had decided Barnbougle was actually more difficult in calm conditions, because the long holes play so much longer.  Maybe for him!  For most the wind has too much influence on our swings.

Agree with this.


The first course that came to my mind was Royal Troon. The wind is almost always present there, and knowing that, the design of the first few holes must be judged with wind in mind. That's because there are a lot of bunkers short left/right and with the prevailing wind playing more or less down (I think), it becomes so tricky to get the ball close. And yet, the holes are only 330yrds give or take. Maddening! So then it opens options to try to thread the needle on the ground. And when it's firm, which it usually is, this can be a tricky task

[Thomas Dai]

Might also be worth considering "the how well you played factor".....play well, like the course, play bad, hate it?
There's a position that a truer judgement could be when you've played bad and the wind/weather conditions are poor/vile do you want to go back out again or head to the carpark asap never wanting to return?
Some other things to ponder - at different levels of wind severity - prevailing vrs other winds, wind and temperature, wind and elevation, wind blowing down longer grass, wind moving balls on greens, wind blowing sand into eyes, wind and softness/firmness of the playing surface, wind blowing over water/spray, wind updrafts/downdrafts/canyons/eddy's. Lots more I'm sure.
atb

[Kalen Braley]

I totally understand building accommodating courses on sites that are windy most of the time, but that wasn't really the question.


Its about building a course that only really shines/shows it best side when the wind is blowing. Can that be considered a great course, or in other words shouldn't a great course generally show its genius in most/all playing conditions?

[JESII]

Kalen,


To me there three primary areas of influence to my opinion of a day of golf: the course architecture, the maintenance presentation (including mowing lines), and the weather.


I’d rather play a mediocre course (Doak 3 I guess) with incredible conditioning on a perfect 58* day with a club and a half breeze than Pebble Beach if the greens are soft and slow and it’s 90* and humid...in 5 hours.


So, wind doesn’t make the architecture better, it simply makes the golf better.

[Sven Nilsen]

Anyone have an example of a course that only shines when the wind blows?

[JESII]

I presume it was the Seminole thread that motivated this one...

[Kalen Braley]

I presume it was the Seminole thread that motivated this one...

I've heard the combo before, but yes it was the Seminole thread that prompted me to start its own thread.


I understand that weather conditions will bring out different playing conditions on any course...but it seems like if a course needs wind to be "Great", then perhaps its not really so.


That's why in my original post, I included some examples of courses I've only seen in non-windy conditions, that I thought to be great anyways.... as opposed to say a moderately good course that when played in the wind brings out "great-like" attributes.

[Sean_A]

I presume it was the Seminole thread that motivated this one...

I've heard the combo before, but yes it was the Seminole thread that prompted me to start its own thread.

I understand that weather conditions will bring out different playing conditions on any course...but it seems like if a course needs wind to be "Great", then perhaps its not really so.

That's why in my original post, I included some examples of courses I've only seen in non-windy conditions, that I thought to be great anyways.... as opposed to say a moderately good course that when played in the wind brings out "great-like" attributes.

I can't think of a single great course I played that was only great due to wind.  I think the opposite is more likely.  If there was little wind, how many courses that are too narrow would then be considered great?  Maybe Alwoodley, Enniscrone, Beau Desert?  To be honest, I can't think of any obvious courses. An outlier may be Littlestone...its better than given credit for. 

Ciao