Ryder Cup course set up and US meltdown

[Michael Whitaker]

I had a thought last night... what if there was a vote by the members of the PGA Tour on which 12 players should represent them on the Ryder Cup team. They know better than anyone who is a “gamer” and will fight you in a match. I’d like to see the guys who win most of the practice round matches rather than the tournament winners. Tournament golf is not the same as match golf. We always have a team filled with major champions and tournament winners, and the Euros always have half the team made up of guys we’ve never heard of. Major champions are overrated in matchplay... it’s a different animal.

[Rick Shefchik]

Okay, here's why the U.S. lost:
I got up at about 6 a.m. Friday morning, turned on Golf Channel's coverage and the U.S. had already won three matches and was one up through 15 in the fourth. The first shot I saw was Tommy Fleetwood making a birdie putt on 16. Then he birdied 17, and Molinari birdied 18 to make the morning session 3-1 for the U.S.
I watched most of the rest of the three days of coverage and Europe kept playing brilliantly while the U.S. played dismally.
If I had not gotten out of bed to watch the coverage on Friday morning, the U.S. surely would have kept playing great golf. I am the reason they lost, and you'll never convince me otherwise.

[jeffwarne]

We always have a team filled with major champions and tournament winners, and the Euros always have half the team made up of guys we’ve never heard of. Major champions are overrated in matchplay... it’s a different animal.

If "we've" never heard of 1/2 the members of the European team, I'd say that's on us as they have a team full of winners on both tours(all of them), Major Champions(5) and proven Ryder Cup slayers(Poulter,Sergio)....


The fact that some were calling our team the best team ever assembled is a complete joke (0-1 as it turns out)


Sure we don't get as many Instagram pictures of them hanging together in the Bahamas, but to say their team is less accomplished(and that golf fans have never heard of them) is erroneous.

[Peter Flory]

They were calling it the best ever assembled because of the average world ranking of the team members, which is a pretty unbiased way to do it. 


The average world ranking for this year's team was 11.6.  The 1999 team was 11.8 and the 2012 team was 12.2.  So not much difference, but slightly better by this measure. 


The Euro average world ranking this year was 18.5, which probably means that it was their best team ever as well (as compared to being in the 40's in the 1980s. 




The amazing thing about this year was that Jason Day is the only international player in the top 20 in the world rankings and he is outside the top 10.  So this really was a clash of the titans in this respect.  It was basically the top 20 players in the world + a few veterans battling it out for supremecy.  Europe had 4 out of the top 8 players in the World, so we didn't even have an advantage at the top end. 


And if 3 out of 4 majors were not contested in the US, maybe the world rankings would be different and our players wouldn't be ranked as high. 

[jeffwarne]

They were calling it the best ever assembled because of the average world ranking of the team members, which is a pretty unbiased way to do it. 


The average world ranking for this year's team was 11.6.  The 1999 team was 11.8 and the 2012 team was 12.2.  So not much difference, but slightly better by this measure. 

So we are comparing it (pre event) to a team that barely won on home soil and a team that lost?
and that makes it "the best team ever assembled"?
wow....

[Kyle Harris]

Ordinal numbers can't be averaged. So the "average ranking" number is meaningless. If I win a race by 2 minutes, and the next 9 finishers are only separated by a second. Any team I am on will skew just based on my data point if you average our ordinal finish.


What matters is the World Ranking Points average, but that doesn't really matter because who cares?

[Mark Pearce]

while Euros play for fun has tightened up the US side and loosened the Euros.

Really?  You on't get it, do you.  The Europeans (the Euro is a currency) aren't playing for fun.  For many of them the Ryder Cup means more than a Major.

[George Pazin]

while Euros play for fun has tightened up the US side and loosened the Euros.

Really?  You on't get it, do you.  The Europeans (the Euro is a currency) aren't playing for fun.  For many of them the Ryder Cup means more than a Major.

And in some respect, that's kinda sad, no?


Kinda cool, too, but kinda sad at the same time.


I do blame Rick Shefchik, he shouldered the responsibility above and owns it and carries that burden for the rest of his life. That's gotta be tough, but he's tough guy....


Kyle's point about ordinal numbers is somewhat true, if a bit nerdy - and I can say that because I've shared a meal with Kyle, how many on here can say that? - but ultimately it comes down to this: match play between players of this caliber, on both teams, is pretty much a coin flip. They are all great golfers, they are all under varying degrees of pressure, they all hit shots that have similar but slightly different outcomes. And that should be celebrated, not ripped apart with second thoughts of "What if this guy had been chosen? What if that guy had been sat in that session?"


It's a team even unlike any other. Just enjoy it. Or don't. The choice is yours, not the players or the Captains...


I will add, the job of Captain is the most overanalyzed, overemphasized, job on the face of the earth. It matters not a lick who is captain, nor the choices he makes, What matters is how the golfers play.


Whether you choose to enjoy it or not is your choice, too.

[Jim Hoak]

If the European golfers do in fact value the Ryder Cup more than majors, I agree with George that that is kind of sad.  In the final analysis great golfers will be remembered more for winning the key tournaments than doing well in a team event.  Seve was a great Ryder Cup player, but he is remembered more for his many majors.  Not to mention Hogan, Nelson, Palmer, Nicklaus, etc.  Montgomery was great in the RC, but his record is lamented for the lack of majors.  Is Tiger’s career really diminished that much by his poor RC record?  I could go on.

[Michael Whitaker]

We always have a team filled with major champions and tournament winners, and the Euros always have half the team made up of guys we’ve never heard of. Major champions are overrated in matchplay... it’s a different animal.

If "we've" never heard of 1/2 the members of the European team, I'd say that's on us as they have a team full of winners on both tours(all of them), Major Champions(5) and proven Ryder Cup slayers(Poulter,Sergio)....

The fact that some were calling our team the best team ever assembled is a complete joke (0-1 as it turns out)

Sure we don't get as many Instagram pictures of them hanging together in the Bahamas, but to say their team is less accomplished(and that golf fans have never heard of them) is erroneous.

The "proven Ryder Cup" slayers is exactly what I mean... Poulter is not considered a great tournament player. Neither is Sergio, really, even though he did win The Masters. But, he will not go down in history as a great tournament golfer.  A good number of the Euro team will not be remembered as great tournament golfers. However, most of our players are potential Hall of Fame players due to their tournament records.

To me that is the problem... we put so much emphasis on tournament success to qualify for the team... however, tournament success does not translate into matchplay success. Just look at the Euros. They appear to be giant slayers, but in reality they are better match players than tournament players (as a whole) and embrace team play.
I'd like to see us pick a team full of guys who LOVE to play big money matches and give (or take) an ass kicking on Tuesday. I don't care how good they are in tournament play. The players know who these guys are... let them vote for who plays on the team and see how it turns out. Can't be any worse.

[Jeff Schley]

[Michael Whitaker]

Exactly! WE need the RIGHT players. The BEST players keep getting their butts kicked. 

[Mark Pearce]

If the European golfers do in fact value the Ryder Cup more than majors, I agree with George that that is kind of sad.  In the final analysis great golfers will be remembered more for winning the key tournaments than doing well in a team event.  Seve was a great Ryder Cup player, but he is remembered more for his many majors.  Not to mention Hogan, Nelson, Palmer, Nicklaus, etc.  Montgomery was great in the RC, but his record is lamented for the lack of majors.  Is Tiger’s career really diminished that much by his poor RC record?  I could go on.

How these players are remembered may not be the same as it is in Europe.  The arrogance of the American team, its press and it supporters every year genuinely rankles players and supporters here.  This time it wasn't just Alan Shipnuck and his prediction of decade long dominance but even some on here who couldn't see past the (US PGA Tour biased) world rankings.  That drives the European team.  Ever since Seve was ignored in the US that has been the case.  Not all European players value the RC more than a major (indeed, most don't) but they are certainly driven far more by the RC than by, say, the Tour Championship.  Didn't Molinari say something to the effect that the win in Paris meant more to him than the Open?  Whether he still feels that in 20 years, we'll see.  We might see that as just a different point of view.  You see it as both clearly wrong and also sad.  Given the year Molinari has had, I don't suppose he'll care much.

[Edward Glidewell]

while Euros play for fun has tightened up the US side and loosened the Euros.

Really?  You on't get it, do you.  The Europeans (the Euro is a currency) aren't playing for fun.  For many of them the Ryder Cup means more than a Major.

I don't think this is true. It may have been at one point in the 80s and possibly 90s, but I don't think it is now. If you told Sergio he could give back his green jacket and have his Masters victory wiped off the books but he'd win every Ryder Cup match and competition for the rest of his career, I'm sure he'd turn you down.

[Tim Leahy]

How about each player on the teams puts up $1 mil of their own money. Winning team takes all. Dont want to put up the money then dont play. It would much better keep all players interest regardless of weather or location.

[Thomas Dai]

Some comments from a very perceptive and humorous Asst Capt of the Presidents Cup team -https://twitter.com/TonyJohnstone56/status/1047058763927228416
Choose your picks to fit the course/course set-up might be another. I'd originally thought more bombers in the Euro side might be appropriate but given the particular course set-up, well in retrospect, obviously not. Lesson learnt. So well done Thomas Bjorn and those aiding him in selection matters.
atb

[Jeff Schley]

How about each player on the teams puts up $1 mil of their own money. Winning team takes all. Dont want to put up the money then dont play. It would much better keep all players interest regardless of weather or location.

Tim, while that is a solid idea, Woods vs. Mickelson (remember that is happening next month) didn't even put up their own money for a TV event.
As an American it is almost embarrassing to think the US needs more motivation to play better.  I remember a quote from Mike Ditka when asked by a reporter why is he such a great motivator?  He responded, "I just get rid of the guys who can't motivate themselves."  I feel the same, we aren't talking focus during the match or motivation it is about your preparation, unselfishness, give up a week of play on tour to actually go play the French Open maybe?  We can think of many reasons because they have been getting drummed so bad. However, if they need more motivation get them the heck off the roster.

[Trent Dixon]

Whilst I don't think the course setup was great, I don't think it made for boring golf. Each to their own, but boring golf for me is guys pulling out driver on every hole, hitting it as hard as possible, without any real regard for where it goes, and hitting a wedge into a green that's been over watered to the extreme... Pretty much like almost every week on the PGA Tour. The Europeans were smart in setting up the course to play to their strengths and exploit the US team's weakness, which they did to perfection. The Americans were, for whatever reason, unwilling, or incapable of adjusting their game plan to suit the conditions.   

[Duncan Cheslett]

Phil's been having a good whinge...


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phil-mickelson-calls-ryder-cup-course-rough-almost-unplayable-says-similar-setups-are-a-waste-of-my-time



Note that he doesn't advocate width for the reasons we do on here; to provide strategic options or simply for the sake of fun...




... no, Phil wants width because he can't hit the ball straight!

[Kalen Braley]

Duncan,


I was just going to post this same story.  For me the takeaway is, its a failure on Furyk's part....for not even asking Phil some basic questions prior to picking him.  Phil says he hates these kind of courses and doesn't like to play them.  How hard was this to figure out a month or two ago?

[jeffwarne]

Duncan,


I was just going to post this same story.  For me the takeaway is, its a failure on Furyk's part....for not even asking Phil some basic questions prior to picking him.  Phil says he hates these kind of courses and doesn't like to play them.  How hard was this to figure out a month or two ago?

Bingo
Or better yet, tell the Euro PGA we're not picking Tiger if they set it up this way:) -and let them explain it to the network;)
but seriously we knew what the setup would be so why not pick players who excel at narrow

[Jon Wiggett]

The fact that Phil would even want to play knowing he would be a liability to the team due to the course set up kind of says a lot about the man, his ego and his lack of team spirit!!!

[Lou_Duran]

Phil's been having a good whinge...


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phil-mickelson-calls-ryder-cup-course-rough-almost-unplayable-says-similar-setups-are-a-waste-of-my-time


Note that he doesn't advocate width for the reasons we do on here; to provide strategic options or simply for the sake of fun...

... no, Phil wants width because he can't hit the ball straight!

You obviously have not been to very many GCA.com outings!  At least he moves the ball out a prodigious distance.  One of the reasons our rounds take a long time is that we are often looking for balls on typically wide, short courses (under 6200 yards).  Not many strategic options gouging a wedge back to a 25 yard wide fairway.  Even Phil wants to have fun!

The fact that Phil would even want to play knowing he would be a liability to the team due to the course set up kind of says a lot about the man, his ego and his lack of team spirit!!!

Wasn't it Weiskopf who opted out a Ryder Cup many years ago in favor of an elk hunt?  As I recall, he was raked over the coals, even during a time when most everything wasn't so polarized. 

We complain that many golf pros lack personality and only comment when required with minimalist, canned remarks.  And we object (with some relish) when they go off-script with frank remarks that challenge our own biases.  How we enjoy cutting down the mighty to our size!

If the RC leadership- Furyk specifically- knew how the French venue was going to be set up, greater care should have been exercised with the four picks, and certainly with the pairings.  It should have been obvious during the practice rounds that Phil was out of sorts on that course and if he couldn't be paired in a fourball match, he should have been put at the end of the lineup in singles. Then, if he complained, so be it.

As to Phil's comments about the set up, yes, the Europeans had that option.  But was it sporting?  Ironic that the course played much closer to a US Open than the typical set up this site prefers by a large margin (the British Open).  Who was it that said something about taking a gun to a knife fight?

[Mark Pearce]

I heard last night from someone I believe to be a reputable source that they had been told by someone very close indeed to the European team that the European team believed Mickelson was the effective leader of the US team and that if they beat Mickelson, they'd beat the USA.  I'm struggling with that but the original source would know.

[Jon Wiggett]

Lou,


I have never had much time for Mr. Mickelson even outside the RC but it seems to me that his appearance at this event and his shenanigans in 2014 only harmed the US team. If you compare Phil to Sergio he is definitely the better player on record except when it comes to the RC where Garcia is head and shoulders above him. If you care mainly about yourself you will make the team weaker which is what he does but that is just my opinion and I fully accept what you are saying.