Ryder Cup course set up and US meltdown

[Jim Hoak]

This may be being discussed elsewhere on here, but I can't find it.
There are probably many reasons to explain the poor US performance in the Ryder Cup, but I wonder how important the set up of the course--with tight fairways, thick rough, a lot of water--is to blame. 
I saw Colin Montgomery interviewed on the Golf Channel fairly early on, and he said that the course showed the difference in play between the US and Europe--bomb and gouge vs. hitting fairways.  In fact, the US team did rank very poorly in the fairways-hit statistic during the past entire season.  How important was that to the outcome?  Obviously it was a factor, but was it the principal one?  Should course set-up dictate the outcome?

[David_Tepper]

Jim -

I think the simple fact that the course has been a regular stop on the European Tour for a good number of years is the best explanation for the results of the match.

My guess is every member of the Euro team had played at least 10-12 tournament rounds (and some of them many more) on the course prior to the match. Only Justin Thomas and Bubba Watson on the US-side had ever played the course before this past week.

DT

[Jim Hoak]

David, I did see a minor complaint by Jim Furyk that almost no US team members played the French Open this year.  It just shows the lesser enthusiasm for the Cup on the US side.
But I do know that in the last Ryder Cup in the US--and already being talked about for two years from now--the course is set up with wider fairways and less penal rough.  I know that's the prerogative of the home team, but it seems like it plays a more important role in the outcome than maybe it should.
I thought Colin Montgomery's discussion on the role the different courses and styles of play between the teams affects the outcome was insightful.

[Jeff Johnston]

This may be being discussed elsewhere on here, but I can't find it.
There are probably many reasons to explain the poor US performance in the Ryder Cup, but I wonder how important the set up of the course--with tight fairways, thick rough, a lot of water--is to blame. 
I saw Colin Montgomery interviewed on the Golf Channel fairly early on, and he said that the course showed the difference in play between the US and Europe--bomb and gouge vs. hitting fairways.  In fact, the US team did rank very poorly in the fairways-hit statistic during the past entire season.  How important was that to the outcome?  Obviously it was a factor, but was it the principal one?  Should course set-up dictate the outcome?

I can see that greater familiarity with the course could have been helpful to the home team, but not for one second can I agree that course set-up in some way 'dictated the outcome'. Regardless of familiarity with it, the same course is there to be played by all through the matches - is there a suggestion that one team's greater ability to hit fairways / generally keep it in play should not confer an advantage?

Suspect the likes of Kuchar and Zach might have done ok on the layout. Simpson did v well and if he had the chance again, Furyk would surely make better use of him.

[Peter Flory]

For this course, Kisner, Snedeker, Schaffelle, and even Furyk probably would have been better suited. 


It would be interesting if the US could have hosted a tryout for the team for the 4 picks at the venue (Say 10 players for the 4 spots).  Playing a couple rounds for your Ryder Cup spot would be a lot of pressure and could help simulate the pressure of being in the event. 

[Buck Wolter]

Am I the only one who found the course atrocious?  It may have been good for spectators that were there but I found the golf boring. How do you build a 9000 seat stadium to watch the best players in the world hit irons off the tee on a par 4? Every hole seemed the same -- hit a tee ball that went dead straight to a tiny ribbon of fairway and then an approach over water to what looked like the same green every other hole. The length of the rough was ludicrous and they're lucky no one got hurt.  The PGA should  grow native to 290 yards on every hole at Whistling Straights and Bethpage.

[Matthew Essig]

There are a few different answers like the set-up, unfamiliarity, etc. but one fact will remain true... I don't think I've ever seen a group of professional golfers (the US side) look as lost, confused, and dumb-founded by a course in a long time.

[Steve Okula]

Am I the only one who found the course atrocious?  It may have been good for spectators that were there but I found the golf boring. How do you build a 9000 seat stadium to watch the best players in the world hit irons off the tee on a par 4? Every hole seemed the same -- hit a tee ball that went dead straight to a tiny ribbon of fairway and then an approach over water to what looked like the same green every other hole. The length of the rough was ludicrous and they're lucky no one got hurt.  The PGA should  grow native to 290 yards on every hole at Whistling Straights and Bethpage.

An unidentified spectator was struck in the eye by a drive hit by Brooks Koepka on the sixth hole on Friday afternoon. The lady in question was taken to a hospital but fortunately it was reported that the injury was not serious.

[Buck Wolter]

Am I the only one who found the course atrocious?  It may have been good for spectators that were there but I found the golf boring. How do you build a 9000 seat stadium to watch the best players in the world hit irons off the tee on a par 4? Every hole seemed the same -- hit a tee ball that went dead straight to a tiny ribbon of fairway and then an approach over water to what looked like the same green every other hole. The length of the rough was ludicrous and they're lucky no one got hurt.  The PGA should  grow native to 290 yards on every hole at Whistling Straights and Bethpage.

An unidentified spectator was struck in the eye by a drive hit by Brooks Koepka on the sixth hole on Friday afternoon. The lady in question was taken to a hospital but fortunately it was reported that the injury was not serious.

Probably trying to hit into the crowd where the rough was trampled down

[Jim Franklin]

It blows me away that none of our players played the French Open this year. I guess the Ryder Cup ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT to the US squad. If it were important, they might have tried some recon. Oh well. I like more Euro players anyway and was hoping for something competitive. Oops, missed out on that too.

[PCCraig]

It blows me away that none of our players played the French Open this year. I guess the Ryder Cup ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT to the US squad. If it were important, they might have tried some recon. Oh well. I like more Euro players anyway and was hoping for something competitive. Oops, missed out on that too.

I thought Justin Thomas played there this summer?

[John Kavanaugh]

The American fan only loves to hate Ryder Cup players and coaches. It's our own fault that our teams show no enthusiasm. As many have, you can build a career on the Cup in Europe.

[Kalen Braley]

Pat Reed with some post RC drama!! 


https://www.sbnation.com/golf/2018/10/1/17922764/patrick-reed-jordan-spieth-ryder-cup-comments-tiger-woods

[Kalen Braley]

The American fan only loves to hate Ryder Cup players and coaches. It's our own fault that our teams show no enthusiasm. As many have, you can build a career on the Cup in Europe.

John,

While some may behave like this, I would say this is untrue of most. If Euro players put more emphasis on winning exhibitions over majors, then whatever floats their boat...

P.S.  I would think Euro fans could come up with something better than a one word song that repeats over and over again. 

[Lynn_Shackelford]

To go back to Jim Hoak's opening question, no the Euros can set it up anyway they want and ALL players must adapt to the conditions.  "Play the course as you find it."  I have no problem with the course set-up dictating the outcome on this one occasion.  Both teams are playing the same course.  Tiger and others are supposedly among the greatest ever to play.  Can't they adjust their game and club selection?


Two other thoughts:
This course has been played often by the Euros and that is an advantage.  The Americans were at a disadvantage of their own making by not preparing more for this course.


In the long run this set-up makes for less interesting golf.  The thick rough is grown to mask the bad architecture(or lack of interesting features).

[Jeff_Lewis]

Thomas did play in the Open de France.  The only one.   He also went 4-1.   Just saying.   


By the way - can you imagine a team in another sport where the coach wanted you to come to practice, only 1 of 12 players showed up, but he still let everybody play in the next game?  I think that's a pretty good analogy.   You want to have a CHANCE at being a Captain's Pick?  Get your butt over there (collect an appearance fee most likely) and show me you can play the golf course....




The golf course was awful, no doubt.  But it was the same for both teams.   How about we have a professional Captain instead of a recreational one, who uses data to determine which players would work best for the competition and in combination with each other.  It's 2018 - that can be done!   Maybe we make Billy Beane or Daryl Morey the permanent RC Captain.  I am SURE we would have better results. 

[Pat Burke]

Fwiw, as much as a love architecture, and mostly lurk and learn on this site, I believe professional golf, especially the Ryder cup does not reflect, or at times need quality architecture.


The Ryder Cup is about two thing, winning that cup and making as much money as possible.  Crass, I know, but this event is so important to the Euro Tour finances, that winning helps.  To that end, it was brilliant to set the course up the way they did.  The PGA of America (not the tour) laughs all the way to the bank too.


In a vacuum, the captains picks were pretty solid.  For this course, obviously not.
Kisner, Schieffele, even Bradley we’re lokely better “horses for courses” picks.


I’ve said it since I played. Want to win the cup, play the TPC Vegas or something of the like.  It’s what our tour play, and where many excel.  Bjorn did a better job, and the Euros played great!

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Agree with the set up taking out the bomb and gougers of the U.S. player, but I also think the Euros get up more for beating the Americans than vice versa. I don't doubt their patriotism but I don't know how many sleepless nights Jordan, Rickie and Dustin will have losing for the old Red, White and Blue. I'm not sure I'd care either flying back on my G5 with my model girlfriend.
Wonder how Bill Schulz would take it?

[Mark Pearce]

It blows me away that none of our players played the French Open this year. I guess the Ryder Cup ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT to the US squad. If it were important, they might have tried some recon. Oh well. I like more Euro players anyway and was hoping for something competitive. Oops, missed out on that too.

I thought Justin Thomas played there this summer?

He did.  And finished top 10.  And was the most successful US player in the Ryder Cup.  Coincidence?

[Mark Pearce]

Let me understand the argument that has been run here properly.  This was the best ever US team.  But Europe cheated because they asked that brilliant team to play on a course that required you to hit the ball straight and control distance.  Is that about it?

[Buck Wolter]

Let me understand the argument that has been run here properly.  This was the best ever US team.  But Europe cheated because they asked that brilliant team to play on a course that required you to hit the ball straight and control distance.  Is that about it?

I don't think they cheated -- sort of like knowing how to use a rule of golf in your favor.  Do I think it made for boring golf? -- yes. I would think that those of us on a Golf Course Architecture site might like to see the best players in the world playing match play on something that at least looks like a golf course not a bowling alley.

Europe would have won on just about any course this week but I also think this setup was over the top and will get a response at Whistling Straights. Deep rough for the first 290 yards just off the fairway then none  the rest of the way? I'd love to see them have ever widening fairways so the further you hit the more room you have. Moli-Proofing.

[Terry Lavin]

Quick analysis:  US team is all about me, me, me, not we, we, we. Euros are get along teammates. Maybe the American problem is Tiger and Phil related, who knows. All I know is that the US team has made the RC unwatchable. Unless you’re not an American team fan.

[Matthew Rose]

And it's been that way for basically 25 years.

Frankly it's only an upset these days when the US wins it.

[Tim Pitner]

It wasn't all that long ago that the situation was opposite--the United States would set up their host courses (e.g., Oak Hill) to punish wayward drivers like Seve and Olazabal and reward straight hitters like Pavin, Irwin, and Strange. The Europeans would do the reverse (e.g., the Belfry). All fair. I didn't care for the look of the course this year, but that's not unusual--I didn't like Celtic Manor or Valhalla either. It remains fun to watch.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

https://sports.yahoo.com/fan-hit-brooks-koepka-shot-ryder-cup-loses-sight-right-eye-015618237.html

Fan hit by Brooks Koepka shot at Ryder Cup loses sight in right eye