Controversial trees that actually make the hole better

[Tommy Williamsen]

The specimen tree guards the right side of the 18th at Ballyhack has triggered a lot of grill room debate. The fairway is wide before the tree but hit it in the fairway behind the tree and you a blocked out especially when the pin on the massive green is back right. For longer hitters the fairway narrows to about 15 yards. The tee shot is key to the hole. Without the tree the hole is just an average uphill two shotter.

[A.G._Crockett]

Tommy,


I haven't played there, so out of curiosity, how far back would the "average" drive be?  What club would I likely be hitting if I was in the wide part of the fairway to the right but with the tree between me and the pin? 

[Sean_A]

Its a strange place for a tree, but there ya go.  I don't know if the hole is better of worse...looks worse to me, but it doesn't matter.  That tree is far too lovely to cut down. 

Ciao

[Steve Kline]

I have no problem with single trees used in this manner, especially one as stately as this. Further, the picture makes it appear that a tee shot hit in the right part of the fairway will bounce left.


Of course, doing this much more than one time on a course would get old.

[Mark Fedeli]

More and more I'm noticing trees on classic American parkland courses that really seem to be the only way to make longer hitters think — the only way to force them to play a strategic shot. In theory, it annoys me, but in reality, sometimes there's not a lot else you can do to rein them in.

[Kalen Braley]

May not be popular on GCA.com, but the Eisenhower tree on 17.  Put some fear back in the players trying to finish off the round and eliminate the bomb and gouge-like affair its now become...

[Jeff_Brauer]

I like it.  I call it the "delayed penalty" (hockey fan, ya know)  You can hit the fairway, but the problem just begins if you hit the wrong spot. 


It appears the left side of the green is open, allowing the guy who hits a tee shot face (probably his natural shot pattern) a chance to merely use that pattern again to hit the green, or be handy if it doesn't fade enough.


If you are a lefty who double crossed a tee shot to end up there, you might be screwed, but you can't allow for every possible miss in strategic design.  Somewhere, there has to be a less good place to hit your tee shot, no?  On this hole, it is short right, but you can still advance the ball somehow.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,


I haven't played there, so out of curiosity, how far back would the "average" drive be?  What club would I likely be hitting if I was in the wide part of the fairway to the right but with the tree between me and the pin?

For me the hole plays about 420. I will hit the tee shot about twenty yards short of the tree. Depending on the pin of this 80 yard long green I'll have anything from 170-220 in. The hole is more uphill than it seems. Yes, the ball will kick left a bit for a tee shot hit right.

[Thomas Dai]

Photoshop the tree out of the photo and then compare the “with” and “without” imagines. If necessary, and it might not be necessary, photoshop other features where the tree is for additional comparison purposes.

Atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Its a strange place for a tree, but there ya go.

It would be fairer to say that it's a strange place for a green.


The tree has been there for probably a hundred years longer than the golf course has. The architect has chosen to utilise the tree in the strategy of the hole.


I quite like it. I normally dislike trees affecting play on golf courses, but when a beautiful specimen tree like this is used intelligently it can be a lovely thing.


It would have been a different situation if the tree had been planted years after the hole was built. That would have been contrary to the original design intent.

[Carl Rogers]

Have played at Ballyhack multiple times ............ I always hoped that some of the lower branches would be trimmed off so that the low approach shot would have more chance of success.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I'm personally a fan of trees or clumps of trees that create a peek a boo effect.  NOT a fan of endless corridors of trees unless those corridors are wide enough on a forested site.


As an aside, are those sheep?!?!  If those are sheep then it seems that the lower limbs are an appropriate height.


From what I can gather from the photos I think it's a fair hole.  The green is very open in front, so a well played punch should work out fine.  How dead are you if you run it up the front and it ends up through the green in the back?


I'm more interested in the placement of the bunkering on the left.  Are those in range off the tee for even a single digit?  It would seem that those are only in play for high handicappers that are blocked out by the tree and hit a garbage second.  I personally would have placed the bunkers long left into the hillside (kind of where the browned out areas are) for the aggressive player that's blocked out by the tree and tries to play a big fade off a hook lie and it doesn't come off.


All in all, it's a cool hole that I'd like to play.

[Tim Martin]

It looks like a fun hole to play and the tree definitely adds a strategic element. I don’t know about the mowing line fanned way out on the right though.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Ran's photo from his profile shows the hole more fully. The tree looks entirely appropriate to me.


Ballyhack18 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm personally a fan of trees or clumps of trees that create a peek a boo effect.  NOT a fan of endless corridors of trees unless those corridors are wide enough on a forested site.


As an aside, are those sheep?!?!  If those are sheep then it seems that the lower limbs are an appropriate height.


From what I can gather from the photos I think it's a fair hole.  The green is very open in front, so a well played punch should work out fine.  How dead are you if you run it up the front and it ends up through the green in the back?


I'm more interested in the placement of the bunkering on the left.  Are those in range off the tee for even a single digit?  It would seem that those are only in play for high handicappers that are blocked out by the tree and hit a garbage second.  I personally would have placed the bunkers long left into the hillside (kind of where the browned out areas are) for the aggressive player that's blocked out by the tree and tries to play a big fade off a hook lie and it doesn't come off.


All in all, it's a cool hole that I'd like to play.

They are goats under the tree. They are mascots and have the run of the course. Jon Cavalier has some good pictures of them.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59991.0.html


The bunkers on the left are not in play off the tee. It doesn't look like they are in play but I've been in them trying to hit a big cut from the right side of the fairway and hit it straight instead.

[Tommy Williamsen]

18 in reverse from Jon Cavalier's thread.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8665/15686665979_ee4e2ef5d3_c.jpg

[A.G._Crockett]

Tommy,


I haven't played there, so out of curiosity, how far back would the "average" drive be?  What club would I likely be hitting if I was in the wide part of the fairway to the right but with the tree between me and the pin?

For me the hole plays about 420. I will hit the tee shot about twenty yards short of the tree. Depending on the pin of this 80 yard long green I'll have anything from 170-220 in. The hole is more uphill than it seems. Yes, the ball will kick left a bit for a tee shot hit right.

Wow!  I don't think I was expecting to hear that much yardage.

Having not seen or played the hole, I am hesitant to say if I'd like it or not.  But I suppose that in general, I would be unhappy were I to find myself well into the fairway and not only not have a shot, but not necessarily even be able to see the pin.  I can see penalizing an errant tee shot with a view of a truly beautiful tree rather than the green, but that's a LOT of fairway that's blocked out, and least by appearances.

But truly, I'd have to play it.  And I'm open to the idea that I might love it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,


I haven't played there, so out of curiosity, how far back would the "average" drive be?  What club would I likely be hitting if I was in the wide part of the fairway to the right but with the tree between me and the pin?

For me the hole plays about 420. I will hit the tee shot about twenty yards short of the tree. Depending on the pin of this 80 yard long green I'll have anything from 170-220 in. The hole is more uphill than it seems. Yes, the ball will kick left a bit for a tee shot hit right.

Wow!  I don't think I was expecting to hear that much yardage.

Having not seen or played the hole, I am hesitant to say if I'd like it or not.  But I suppose that in general, I would be unhappy were I to find myself well into the fairway and not only not have a shot, but not necessarily even be able to see the pin.  I can see penalizing an errant tee shot with a view of a truly beautiful tree rather than the green, but that's a LOT of fairway that's blocked out, and least by appearances.

But truly, I'd have to play it.  And I'm open to the idea that I might love it.

Normally, I grow comfortable with a hole the more I play it. Not 18. I can't find the left side of the fairway anymore. I try to hit a little draw off the tree but tend to hit a big hook into the hill. I'm better off hitting it behind the tree and hitting a cut into the green. I think it is a wonderful finisher but for me it has gotten in my head. I'll make more bogies than pars and very very few birdies.

[Wade Whitehead]

18 at Ballyhack is tough for a number of reasons, including:

• The prevailing wind is often into the player and is felt on the tee, but not on the uphill approach,
• The fairway (on the right side) cants enough to kick a shot to the right toward, but often not all the way to, a clear shot around the tree,
• The tree obscures any sight of the pin (from the tee) when cut on the right third of the green,
• A 23,000 square foot putting surface that yields plenty of Greens In Regulation but a high number of three (or more) putts,
• Its yardage (up to 455 yards) tempts most players to hit driver, and
• It completes a very difficult homestretch of par fours on every other hole (12, 14, 16, 18) that require all kinds of shots.

I think the hole is fair because:

• Hitting driver isn't a requirement, since the green is so receptive to a longer shot (fully open in the front),
• Bunkers (and one strategic rock on the hill behind the green) are placed to provide alignment assistance,
• The fairway cut on the right side of the hole allows the player a chance at a clean strike (which is necessary for the desired left-to-right approach shot),
• Bold green contours and depth (~65 yards) allow loads of ground game on the second (or third (or fourth)) shot, and
• The player knows what is coming, probably having seen the pin location from the staging area before the round.

Lester limbed up the tree during construction.  Carl mentioned that he'd like a bit more space, which I understand, but I've always noticed that Lester is content with exactly how much he left.

I've always wished for short grass under the tree, as the rough there can get pretty thick.  A shot that finds that rough is difficult to work and almost always finds the far left section of the green.

Generally, the hole plays far more difficult than most people think.  In the first State Open hosted at the course (in 2014), it played more than a half of a shot over par.  One of my playing partners five-putted it in the first round (having reached the green in regulation).  It's the straightest par four at Ballyhack and the entire hole is pretty much in full view from the tee, so I think many player expect less than they get.

Without the tree, though, it wouldn't be nearly the same.  Bomb driver, hit a shorter shot that more likely finds the proper tier, etc.  I can only think of one other hole that is so straight but which was so impacted by a single tree, and that's [the old] 17 at Augusta.

WW

[Steve Lang]

  ... and there's some reason why one can't hit a fade or slice a ball around the offending tree?

[Wade Whitehead]

What about #18 at Pebble Beach?

Tree in the middle of the fairway, then the massive one short right of the green...

WW

[Chris Mavros]

The Third at Sweeten's Cove.  There's a tree on the left side of the green that I've heard some complain about, but I think it adds complexity to the hole.  Here's the best photo I took of it. 

[Chris Macios]

11 at Quaker Ridge is all about the large specimen tree on the left side of the fairway. The fairway is miles wide but you need to be on the correct side (and challenge bunkers on the right) in order to have a comfortable pitch shot into the green. Or lay back, easily hit the fairway but have a longer shot you need to work right to left into the green. Great hole.

[Jim Nugent]

What do you guys think of the trees in the fairway at CPC 17? 

[corey miller]

I am not a fan of trees as strategic elements on golf courses.  I have heard too many knuckleheads espouse the thinking that you should be "forced to execute the shot".  Heck isn't driving a ball 220 over water (perhaps even a lay up option?)  being forced to execute the shot?

Had this conversation with Steve Lapper on a course only yesterday.  I think we agree on one where there is blindness even with tree removed...and we disagree on the other which has no terrain "defense".

I have not seen Quaker Ridge #11 but sight-unseen think that a tree on a classic course that is so integral was not intended to be there.  Still have a few on my course that I seem to be in a small minority on.  Have even heard the folly that we will somehow "have to replace the tree" were it to die or fall. 

In this instance, Lester left it there so I would go a super thumbs up on keeping.

That said.....Doesn't the ridge the tree sits on provide and element of blindness to the second shot?  IMO blindness based on terrain for a "hazard" trumps a large tree anytime.