Distance Insights - USGA survey.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Let your voice be heard!  Consider responding to this USGA/R&A survey primarily about distance impact on the current game.


http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/advancing-the-game/distance-insights.html


Plan on about 20mins.

[Cal Seifert]

Lets hope they take our word over Titleist’s.

[Peter Flory]

They need to work on their multiple choice options.


How far do you hit a 7 iron:
a) under 130 yards
b) 131 to 170 yards
c) 171 to 220 yards
d) 221 to 300 yards
e) 301 to 350 yards
f) over 350 yards


I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like that. 

[Edward Glidewell]

They need to work on their multiple choice options.


How far do you hit a 7 iron:
a) under 130 yards
b) 131 to 170 yards
c) 171 to 220 yards
d) 221 to 300 yards
e) 301 to 350 yards
f) over 350 yards


I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like that.

I thought that was a hilarious question too.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

They need to work on their multiple choice options.


How far do you hit a 7 iron:
a) under 130 yards
b) 131 to 170 yards
c) 171 to 220 yards
d) 221 to 300 yards
e) 301 to 350 yards
f) over 350 yards


I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like that.

This one would be hard for me to answer, I can get about 319 out of a 7 iron but I like to gear back a little on my iron shots, so 273 is a nice comfortable 7.  Should I select d or e?

[jeffwarne]

bizarre survey, but I expressed my opinion pretty clearly

[Bill Shamleffer]

.

[herrstein]

I think it's amusing that the USGA has taken the bait on club numbering. A 7 iron used to be 36 degrees. Now many 8 irons are stronger than that. The loft creep has been worst in the wedges, however.

[Wade Whitehead]

The "What do you typically shoot in an 18-hole round?" question has a "sub 60" answer choice.

WW

[BHoover]

The "What do you typically shoot in an 18-hole round?" question has a "sub 60" answer choice.

WW

Is that an ESC sub-60?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I think it's amusing that the USGA has taken the bait on club numbering. A 7 iron used to be 36 degrees. Now many 8 irons are stronger than that. The loft creep has been worst in the wedges, however.

That doesn't mean they aren't aware of the same thing.

I answered, though I'm guessing my answers will be somewhat unique among the membership here.

[Peter Pallotta]

If only they'd had the genius who designed this survey in charge of the equipment file back in 2001-2004, we wouldn't need to be having this discussion (or taking this survey). Do I agree or disagree with the notion that 'there's too much emphasis on how far people drive the ball'? Hmm: let's see -- I'm taking a survey to voice my concern about how far the pros are hitting it, so I suppose I have to answer 'No, I disagree that there's too much emphasis on driving distance'. But wait: that then suggests that I think the *current* level of discussion about driving distances is just fine -- except I *don't* think that, which is why I'm taking the damn survey!
What did you guys answer? Let me know, I've still got the window open on the survey and I'm stuck on that question! 

[Kalen Braley]

While I agree the survey had its flaws...


I'm hesitant to be critical because it appears they are trying to get on top of the issue and/or educate themselves. Even if the execution is less than stellar, it appears the intent is there, but yes this could just be a dog and pony show to appease the concerned....

[jeffwarne]

If only they'd had the genius who designed this survey in charge of the equipment file back in 2001-2004, we wouldn't need to be having this discussion (or taking this survey). Do I agree or disagree with the notion that 'there's too much emphasis on how far people drive the ball'? Hmm: let's see -- I'm taking a survey to voice my concern about how far the pros are hitting it, so I suppose I have to answer 'No, I disagree that there's too much emphasis on driving distance'. But wait: that then suggests that I think the *current* level of discussion about driving distances is just fine -- except I *don't* think that, which is why I'm taking the damn survey!
What did you guys answer? Let me know, I've still got the window open on the survey and I'm stuck on that question!

the leading questions were written by the same knuckleheads who told us for years that the distance increases on Tour were statistically insignificant-the the amounts? perhaps. The direction? very significant as it's always the same-farther.


It felt almost like a high school popularity test

[Kevin Neary]

I find it laughable that if you go before 2003 in the average driving distance, the difference in driving distance grows drastically. Most of the driving distance gains since 2003 are most likely from fitness and marginal technological improvement. But, if you go back to 1995, you now have a 30 yard difference, which can really only be accounted for improvements in technology based on comparing fitness improvements and distance gains between 2003-present. But hey, cherry picking data to bolster your argument does make it an easier world to live in...

[Jon Wiggett]

I definitely hit the ball further now compared to in 1988. If I compare my present driver with my old persimmon there is only a 10 yard difference between them when I hit them both out of the middle. So the driver technology has not made much of a difference with the distance on a good shot.


However..... If I mishit my old persimmon I lose significant distance which reduces the average distance by a good 15 yards. On top of this, the accuracy suffered quite a bit from mishits. With my new driver there was no discernible difference with good or bad hits both in distance and direction meaning I can swing as hard as I like with no bad consequences. Players need no skill to use a modern driver it is just a blast it type of shot.


On distance, it is the ball where the problem lies and this is what needs addressing. 15% reduction would be cheap and easy to do in a short time frame.

[Thomas Dai]

I definitely hit the ball further now compared to in 1988. If I compare my present driver with my old persimmon there is only a 10 yard difference between them when I hit them both out of the middle. So the driver technology has not made much of a difference with the distance on a good shot.

However..... If I mishit my old persimmon I lose significant distance which reduces the average distance by a good 15 yards. On top of this, the accuracy suffered quite a bit from mishits. With my new driver there was no discernible difference with good or bad hits both in distance and direction meaning I can swing as hard as I like with no bad consequences. Players need no skill to use a modern driver it is just a blast it type of shot.

On distance, it is the ball where the problem lies and this is what needs addressing. 15% reduction would be cheap and easy to do in a short time frame.

+1
atb

[Jay Mickle]

It was once upon a time a sweet spot , now it is a sweet face.

[Brett Wiesley]

It seemed to me they had multiple questions to address the same issue, written differently enough and sly enough such that you may answer differently to the same question/issue.  I wonder if done this way to invalidate the individuals survey, and thus toss it out.


I liked the comment boxes, but wonder if they will be read/addressed as there could be thousands of them.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

It was once upon a time a sweet spot , now it is a sweet face.

Right, so if that's the case… how often did PGA Tour pros miss the sweet spot before? The bigger driver faces have benefitted the average golfers far, far more than PGA Tour players. Average golfers mis-hit the driver all the time: PGA Tour players don't mis-hit it very often. I don't think Dustin Johnson, for example, mis-hit Jack's driver very much recently. They're good, as the old slogan went.

[Mark Smolens]

I’m not so sure I totally agree with your last post Erik. It seems to me that with the new drivers, today’s pros can go at the ball 100%, while in Jack’s prime they rarely went balls out after it. Even if they don’t hit it in the middle, today’s pros still get almost maximum distance without the huge decrease in accuracy.


I remember when I stopped participating in the USGA associates program.  I got a survey from them asking why I stopped. I sent a long email about the ruling bodies’ abdication of their duty to govern the game because of an apparent fear of litigation from the OEMs. I actually got a response from Frank Thomas (which indicates just how long ago this was). After a back and forth we agreed to disagree. I wonder if his views on the bomb and gouge aspect of the game have changed.

[Pat Burke]

It is interesting to watch an attempt at fixing a complex issue, while looking for a simple solution.  S


Since the late 90s

The ability to design a solid core ball that spins.
The light years difference in what is considered ideal (or optimal) launch and spin numbers.
The rolling of and shaving of fairways
Width becoming more desirable, along with firm and fast
Training for power and speed
Date, video, and better knowledge of the forces that can be maximized for distance
Lighter, more precisely fit clubs and drivers that can be dialed in to near perfection for each player


Scares me that a simple solution will be attempted that will simply be skirted like the grooves

[JMEvensky]

It is interesting to watch an attempt at fixing a complex issue, while looking for a simple solution.  S


Since the late 90s

The ability to design a solid core ball that spins.
The light years difference in what is considered ideal (or optimal) launch and spin numbers.
The rolling of and shaving of fairways
Width becoming more desirable, along with firm and fast
Training for power and speed
Date, video, and better knowledge of the forces that can be maximized for distance
Lighter, more precisely fit clubs and drivers that can be dialed in to near perfection for each player


Scares me that a simple solution will be attempted that will simply be skirted like the grooves

Since your perspective is different from anyone else's, what would you do if you had the power?

[John Emerson]

I was licking my chops when I received this survey.  Needless to say I laid into the equipment industry and how they’ve effected golf in poor manor.  Usga is a guilty accomplice to this problem.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I’m not so sure I totally agree with your last post Erik. It seems to me that with the new drivers, today’s pros can go at the ball 100%, while in Jack’s prime they rarely went balls out after it. Even if they don’t hit it in the middle, today’s pros still get almost maximum distance without the huge decrease in accuracy.

A bit. But I think the degree to which the older guys "dialed it back" and the degree to which the modern players go at it at 100% are both overstated. I think the gap in speed (as a "percentage") is closer than commonly thought.

And that the gap, though perhaps about the same for the average golfer, aids them more with the ways in which they mis-hit it.

That's all I meant.

I was licking my chops when I received this survey.  Needless to say I laid into the equipment industry and how they’ve effected golf in poor manor.  Usga is a guilty accomplice to this problem.

I love how everyone just leaves the R&A out of it. They've been just as guilty. Perhaps more so. (If you're on the side that they've done things "wrong," that is.)