Best Course by Colt and Alison

[ian]

Park was definately by Alison (it happens to be a club I work with). They played the PGA there in 1934. They are removing trees on 14 and 15, which will lead to the return of all the carry bunkers in the hill on 14 and the carry bunkers in the inside corner of 15. Park hs been altered, but is generally all in place. Trees are the largest problem that the course has, but the tide finally seems to be turning.

Toronto and Hamilton are Colt and are both very very special courses. Top 5 in Canada easily in my heart. Toronto is far more intact than Hamilton.

[d.s. beleaf]

C.C. Detroit is not in the league of Plum Hollow.  I know I am biased but it is not even close IMO.  I have played none of their International work and will not comment on courses that stopped existing before I was born, but of the ones I have seen, Milwaukee C.C. is the best remaining example of Alison's US work and Plum Hollow is the best routing (With a careful restoration, it would become the best, as it was considered in the 40's and 50's when it hosted Ryder Cup's and Major Championships).

u gotta be kidding! best routings do not usually include fences to protect tees and greens. ccd is like a walk through greenfield village and plum hollow is like a walk through warren valley-east. maybe by careful restoration you mean plucking the fences?

[David Wigler]

d.s. have the courage to use a real name and I'll debate this with you.  The is not a single fence blocking a green or protecting trees anywhere on Plum Hollow (Have you player it?).  There is a fence down the right side of #4 (Next to 11 Mile Road).  If you have played any old courses, this is quite common as development came around them.  #4 happens to be the hole where Snead's 10 cost him the '57 Western Open.  I personally am not in love with CCD's greens and the routing isn't even close.  As I wrote at the start, develop a sac, and I will continue this conversation.

[d.s. beleaf]

the long debated anonymity issue...merits to many ideas and thoughts on both sides.

that aside, your opinion is simply your opinion. plum hollow is a marginal course...IMHO. i do remember cramped routing. fences to protect players on the "interior". maybe one of the better courses in southfield (or whatever town it is in), but not the area, state, region, and certainly not Colt and/or Alison's portfolio.

Your turn.

[David Wigler]

d.s. no long debated issue here.  You lack the courage to put your name behind your opinions.  That is cowardly and that is fact.

FYI - I can assure you that there are no fences on the interior of Plum.  I will look again in case I missed it on the other 50+ rounds this year but the only fences that exist are the one that borders the right side of #4 to seperate it from 9-mile road and the one way right of #17 to seperate it from the subdivision.  That's it.  How long since you played Plum?  How long since CCD?  Do you know what a routing is?  Did you actually think CCD's routing was good?  What did you think of CCD's greens in comparison to Plum's?  It appears that you are basing an anonomous opinion on a phantom fence.

[d.s. beleaf]

d.s. no long debated issue here.  You lack the courage to put your name behind your opinions.  That is cowardly and that is fact.

FYI - I can assure you that there are no fences on the interior of Plum.  I will look again in case I missed it on the other 50+ rounds this year but the only fences that exist are the one that borders the right side of #4 to seperate it from 9-mile road and the one way right of #17 to seperate it from the subdivision.  That's it.  How long since you played Plum?  How long since CCD?  Do you know what a routing is?  Did you actually think CCD's routing was good?  What did you think of CCD's greens in comparison to Plum's?  It appears that you are basing an anonomous opinion on a phantom fence.

your assured nature conjures up the following:

"the greater the artist, the greater the doubt; perfect confidence is granted to the less talented as a consolation prize."

fortunately, i have not had to play plum hollow frequently. it is in a slum (i apologize if you billet close-by). the clubhouse is a monstrosity from the 50s-60s-70s. i have already mentioned my disdain for the course. ccd is superior in every way. yes, every way.  

[David Wigler]

fortunately, i have not had to play plum hollow frequently. it is in a slum (i apologize if you billet close-by). the clubhouse is a monstrosity from the 50s-60s-70s. i have already mentioned my disdain for the course. ccd is superior in every way. yes, every way.  

d.s. I now suggest that you stay anonomous and further suggest that you leave GCA.  Gib once said that the treehouse was open to all but I am sure he meant to exclude Racists.  Plum Hollow is located in a middle class African American neighboorhood.  If the fact that the demographics of the area are predominently black makes it a slum, you are a sorry excuse for a human being.  My wife plays in a womens league and frequently leaves the club well after dark.  My children use the pool all summer.  I often spend late evenings at the 19th hole.  As far as I know, there has never been a single car vandalized in the parking lot and we have no security guard.  None of that would be done in a slum.  I noticed you skipped my questions but as most racists are small minded, that is no surprise.  I will no longer debate with you.  Racists are the lowest form of man.

PS - You are right that CCD has a superior Clubhouse and after the orgininal burnt to the ground in the 1950's, we rebuilt.  How did I forget to factor that in to the quality of the course and the routing.  Alison was clearly an idiot for not leaving better plans for the new clubhouse built two years after he died.  At least you dropped the stupid fence thing.

[d.s. beleaf]

d.s. I now suggest that you stay anonomous and further suggest that you leave GCA.  Gib once said that the treehouse was open to all but I am sure he meant to exclude Racists.  Plum Hollow is located in a middle class African American neighboorhood.  If the fact that the demographics of the area are predominently black makes it a slum, you are a sorry excuse for a human being.  My wife plays in a womens league and frequently leaves the club well after dark.  My children use the pool all summer.  I often spend late evenings at the 19th hole.  As far as I know, there has never been a single car vandalized in the parking lot and we have no security guard.  None of that would be done in a slum.  I noticed you skipped my questions but as most racists are small minded, that is no surprise.  I will no longer debate with you.  Racists are the lowest form of man.

PS - You are right that CCD has a superior Clubhouse and after the orgininal burnt to the ground in the 1950's, we rebuilt.  How did I forget to factor that in to the quality of the course and the routing.  Alison was clearly an idiot for not leaving better plans for the new clubhouse built two years after he died.  At least you dropped the stupid fence thing.

you bring up race...why? i am not certain, maybe insight into your insecurities or your thoughts. maybe you ought to reconsider the late nights in the 19th hole...seems that the 2 carbon fragment abuse has resulted in Korsakoff's psychosis.

SLUM-a densely populated usually urban area marked by crowding, dirty run-down housing, poverty, and social disorganization. see plum hollow.

given your hostile and very disorganized thought process, i will move on. no point in discussing architecture with someone who thinks plum hollow is hallowed ground. maybe you could start a thread on warren valley-east v. west. same league, though ross...huh?

[David Wigler]

d.s.  Two days ago Mike Devries was flying over Plum Hollow and took this picture from his camera phone and was kind enough to send it to me.  Given your desricption, I am surprised that they did not restrict air access due to the high risk of surface to air missles.

Funny, racist, but I do not see slums or abject poverty (Or a fence on the course).  I see a middle class, tree lined neighborhood that happens to be mostly African American.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

David,

Everyone knows that folks in obvious poverty-laden slums (hey, they're Black, it has to be) like this don't use S-t-A weapons, they use AK-47s and such during their daily drive-by's.  Get REAL, David!  Don't you wear your Kevlar while playing here?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,
Where is the image?

[David Wigler]

Tommy,

It would appear that the HP Photo site is down.  When it gets back up, the photo should return.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David, I can see it now, and I can also see Eminm and a few of his fella gangstas down there getting ready to take a club to the head of a few non-conforming members.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,
I see a shopping mall right to the left there. How many troubled youth's from the Hendersonville, NC Boys & Girls Club have been hanging out there?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Forgot about this shot below of Plum Hollow, which was AOTD
#240 (and thread where David W explains describes
the "unofficial" Ryder Cup played here in 1943 - scroll down):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2396 )

Unfortunately, this shot doesn't include the utter
hopelessness and urban decay that is the area around PH, full
of Crips, Bloods, and other gangland drug and turf wars that
necessitates nightly helicopter surveillance, etc.  (O.K. topic
and sarcasm beaten to death):

[Paul_Turner]

Don't know Plum Hollow; but here's a list of a few course that I think are Colt/Alison hidden gems (some guesses here, not seen all).

Colt: De Pan, Eindhoven, Harborne, Camberley Heath, Moseley, Longniddry, Broadstone (part), Whittington Heath, St Germaine, Puerto de Hierro

Alison:  Haagsche, Kirtland, Century, Naruo (part)

The overall quality of both architect's work appears to be very good.  No obvious duds in my experience.

[patrick_burton]

I didn't have time to read all of the threads...... but didn't see Colt's Swinley Forest mentioned..... I was lucky enough to play it last summer, absolutely amazing!

-pb

[d.s. beleaf]

David:  I didn't want to bring this up, but isn't there a fence guarding #6 tee from hooks off #5 tee or vice versa?  Or am I in that same fog that they played CPC in yesterday?

Wigler says...FYI - I can assure you that there are no fences on the interior of Plum.

We need a ruling. I think i can see it on the large aerial...not from Mr. DeVries camera-phone. Interesting how the "crop" excludes the RVs and detritius.

Memory banks reviewed...cannot remember a single list of "best in michigan" that included plum hollow. Unlikely that one will make the overlooked gem argument, but let's see.

[David Wigler]

DS (Racist)

Just to be sure I understand, you do not know what a routing is, cannot compare green complexes, say Plum has never made any lists (An inaccuracy, as Plum was on Golf Digest's first list and has hosted more tour events - Including a major - then CCD) and your primary complaints about the course are that it is in an area near black people, and the clubhouse was built in the 50's with 50's architecture.  Thank you for being so enlightening.  Now please go away.  Your type is not needed in society.  Whatever lily-white area you are from is quite fine.  I'm sure you can find 10,000 thread count, bed sheets to cut holes in for your chapter meetings.

In case you won’t go away, then in the spirit of Pat Mucci, I will make you an offer.  Having played Plum again last night, I am absolutely certain there are no fences on the interior of the golf course.  So why don't we bet a number that a seasoned veteran of CCD such as yourself can clearly afford, say $10,000.  Now I am sure that the presence of Black people will prevent you from coming to Plum (On top of that, the club admits them as members, along with Jews and Asians: Oh the horror), but you can pick any person of your choosing (As long as they are not another racist) to come walk the course with me (Having brought the cashiers check - I will do the same).  If no fences are found, I will donate the money to what I feel is certainly your least favorite charity - The United Negro College Fund.  Given that you use a fake name to hide your racism and cowardice, I am sure you will decline.

[T_MacWood]

Alison and Colt deserve better....this has disinigrated as badly as any thread in recent history.

[d.s. beleaf]

DS (Racist)

Just to be sure I understand, you do not know what a routing is, cannot compare green complexes, say Plum has never made any lists (An inaccuracy, as Plum was on Golf Digest's first list and has hosted more tour events - Including a major - then CCD) and your primary complaints about the course are that it is in a area near black people, and the clubhouse was built in the 50's with 50's architecture.  Thank you for being so enlightening.  Now please go away.  Your type is not needed in society.  Whatever lily-white area you are from is quite fine.  I'm sure you can find 10,000 thread count, bed sheets to cut holes in for you chapter meetings.

In case you won’t go away, then in the spirit of Pat Mucci, I will make you an offer.  Having played Plum again last night, I am absolutely certain there are no fences on the interior of the golf course.  So why don't we bet a number that a seasoned veteran of CCD such as yourself can clearly afford, say $10,000.  Now I am sure that the presence of Black people will prevent you from coming to Plum (On top of that, the club admits them as members, along with Jews and Asians: Oh the horror), but you can pick any person of your choosing (As long as they are not another racist) to come walk the course with me (Having brought the cashiers check - I will do the same).  If no fences are found, I will donate the money to what I feel is certainly your least favorite charity - The United Negro College Fund.  Given that you use a fake name to hide your racism and cowardice, I am sure you will decline.

once again, the race card. you are persistent if nothing else. the veracity of slum seems to have struck a nerve...remember, the definition of slum does not relate to race, creed, etc. you brought up and perseverate on the topic of race. why? my reference to slum is merely to identify the surroundings and the visual effect they create.

now, as to who designed/played the course 50 years ago...walter hagen designed dearborn hills (the original course) and it was one of the worst courses ever. really. many marginal clubs perpetuate their pedigree because the present is not as kind as the past. so a few guys played there in the 40s, a PGA, whatever...that was a long time ago. plum hollow is not a top fifty in michigan.

your aggressive, unfounded claims make for an unpleasant environment. you must be more kind to the others in the sand traps.

[David Wigler]

I assume that means you are delining the bet.  The pictures clearly show that it is not in a slum or is it a vast conspiracy by the four people who posted them just to make you look bad.  No, you are a racist!  Please either pony up $10K or go away!