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Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brora vs Turnberry
« on: September 13, 2018, 02:35:05 PM »
I just returned from my second Scotland trip. This time, we played Nairn, Dornoch, Brora, Castle Stuart, Troon, Prestwick, and Turnberry.


I thought Brora was better than advertised. The setting and scenery were magical, of course, but I was pleasantly surprised to find the turf was firm and fast and the course was more interesting and more fun than I had expected — even after reading so much about it on here. It was the true highlight of the trip for me, in the same way North Berwick and Cruden Bay highlighted my last one. I hope everyone visiting the Highlands makes a point of playing there.


The other guys in my group are not much interested in GCA, and they also adored Brora, which made me extremely happy. However, the trip highlight for them was Turnberry. I understand why, it's a very dramatic course now. But a near-constant reach for drama at the expense of charm actually made it my least favorite course of the trip.


There were nowhere near enough unique or interesting ground features to go along with the sea views and vistas. And it felt more like a modern course than something that had been there for decades (which isn't necessarily a problem, I thought Castle Stuart had plenty of notable strategic features, especially around the greens). The whole thing simply felt over-engineered, with too much emphasis placed on the visceral effect of the landscaping. And that makes sense — I learned they plan to move even more greens to locations with even more seaside backdrops.


It's hard to really drill down after only playing each course once; my memory of each hole is a bit foggy. But I did think these two courses were a neat juxtaposition and presented an interesting view into two types of golfers who are equally thoughtful but have slightly different priorities.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2018, 03:09:57 PM »
Wow..quite the contrast, Mark.


1. SW coast v. NE coast
2. Redone/revamped resort course v a James Braid original local member's course
3. $350 v. $75
4. $120 caddies v $5 trollies
5. Owned by crude animals v (partially) maintained by farm animals...;-)






Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2018, 03:16:03 PM »
Mark,


A good post. I haven’t played the revamped Turnberry but your concern would be my suspicion.


You’re only really the second person I’ve seen to say that though. Most people - including many on here - would sing its praises unreservedly.


Ally

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2018, 03:36:13 PM »

Ian, that is all true!


Ally, I won't speak for anyone here, but for my group, I think if you took the basic layout of the holes at Brora or Dornoch and put them in the tall fescue dunes and on the seaside cliffs of Turnberry, they would've loved Turnberry twice as much — and rightly so.


I also can't deny that I rate a bit of rustic charm far higher than them, even though it has no bearing on how the course plays. That said, Turnberry played quite a bit softer than I was hoping for, which also bothered me more than them (I've never met a putt from 100 yards out on the fairway that I didn't like).
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2018, 04:01:12 PM »
Mark,
You have some chutzpah, juxtaposing those two!
I love it!
Fair to say they're polar extremes of Scottish Links Golf, but a very valuable example of the ENORMOUS variety of golf available over here.
Come back soon!
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2018, 04:40:13 PM »
Some might be inclined to suggest that Trumpberry with Brora’s maintenance regime would still be interesting, maybe more so, whereas Brora with Trumpberry’s wouldn’t be half so inviting!
Atb

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2018, 05:04:37 PM »
"But a near-constant reach for drama at the expense of charm"... that is very well-put and a phrase that I wish i had at my ready when describing a recent course i liked vs. the bigger name. [/size]I[/color][/size]'m going to use this often... giving you full credit of course*![/color]


[/size][/color]
[/size]*extra points if anyone can name the movie.[/color]
[/size] [/color]

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2018, 05:38:01 PM »
Some might be inclined to suggest that Trumpberry with Brora’s maintenance regime would still be interesting, maybe more so, whereas Brora with Trumpberry’s wouldn’t be half so inviting!
Atb
::)

David, might you be trying too hard?

Me thinks that much more is seeping into the analysis than the golf course (Turnberry).  As much as I like Brora for what it is- a fun, low-cost, low-maintenance club links- it is not in the same planet as Turnberry, a course considered by most as world-class before Trump bought it, and by nearly universal opinion, much improved by Martin Ebert since.













V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2018, 05:38:31 PM »
Brora, possibly the most fun I have ever had playing golf. Plus so many classic moments:

Adam Lawerence:(Baritone)
"Vaughn, unless you fancy putting after being hit with a taser, I would advise against moving the electric fence post protecting the green from grazing cattle.  Just a thought"

Me: "Well then,... thanks. That's helpful local knowledge."  :D
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 05:40:41 PM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2018, 05:53:39 PM »
Some might be inclined to suggest that Trumpberry with Brora’s maintenance regime would still be interesting, maybe more so, whereas Brora with Trumpberry’s wouldn’t be half so inviting!
Atb
::)

David, might you be trying too hard?

Me thinks that much more is seeping into the analysis than the golf course (Turnberry).  As much as I like Brora for what it is- a fun, low-cost, low-maintenance club links- it is not in the same planet as Turnberry, a course considered by most as world-class before Trump bought it, and by nearly universal opinion, much improved by Martin Ebert since.


Lou, I don't recall the opportunity to play many truly fun or unique shots at Turnberry, and fun/unique shots is mainly how I judge a golf course.


I could definitely be forgetting some so I welcome a reminder. But I don't recall any greens that asked questions like the 6th at Castle Stuart. No thrilling cause/effect decisions called for like the drive on 17 at Dornoch. Nothing even close to the features you find at Prestwick, North Berwick, or Cruden Bay. And to use another modern example, nothing as unique as the 2nd or 17th at Cabot Cliffs.


Is it a terrific experience? Sure. Terrific views? Absolutely. But I'm just not sure there are many terrific holes. I was disappointed, and for the record, I played extremely well there.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2018, 06:01:18 PM »
I haven't played Turnbery post TRump.  I did play the old version and I would play Brora 9 times out of 10, given the choice between the two..  Possibly the most over-rated Top 10 UK course.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2018, 08:34:49 PM »
I haven't played Turnbery post TRump.  I did play the old version and I would play Brora 9 times out of 10, given the choice between the two..  Possibly the most over-rated Top 10 UK course.

+1...Pre Trump...Turnberry barely made my best 50 GB&I....but then...Brora doesn't make it!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2018, 02:01:21 AM »

Mark,


interesting that the course you liked the most was also the only 'so called' second tier course you played.


Lou,


my friend the only way that Trump's course trumps Brora is in the length. The rest is just bling!!! Turnberry is a very good course and has certainly been improved in the recent remodel but Brora has by far the better course from a GCA and maintenance point of view. As for the value for money scale the two are worlds apart.


9 time Brora 1 time Turnberry.


Funnily enough I was looking at an offer for two rounds on the 'King Robert the Bruce' with overnight (B&B) at the hotel for £169 pp today which was tempting.


Jon

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2018, 02:14:11 AM »
Whatever about the normal reasons that people prefer Brora over Turnberry (rumple, contour, rustic charm), what interested me most about Mark’s post was his over-engineered comment for Turnberry - it looks like it is trying too hard.


That’s the point that interests me.


(As always, refer back to the old subtlety vs eye candy thread for where I’m getting at)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2018, 03:27:28 AM »
Some great quotes in this thread


The two courses are perfect barometers....


in many ways reminds me of the Harry Potter sorting hat, which just adds to the joy of playing your preferred course as both for the most part are generally populated with properly sorted folks....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2018, 03:48:06 AM »
Off-course views have been mentioned in relation to Trumpberry.
My recollection is that the views at Brora are pretty amazing (equal/better?) as well. Maybe the publicity/magazine/web photos etc for Trumpberry make the views look desireable (not sure there are any publicity photos of Brora!).
Atb

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2018, 09:02:14 AM »
Off-course views have been mentioned in relation to Trumpberry.
My recollection is that the views at Brora are pretty amazing (equal/better?) as well. Maybe the publicity/magazine/web photos etc for Trumpberry make the views look desireable (not sure there are any publicity photos of Brora!).
Atb


I think it's more due to the cliffs and how many holes play along or over them. And also the teeing grounds on top of tall dunes, providing additional sweeping vistas. It all makes for a compelling contrast, to be sure. And a lot of great photo ops.


I'd be curious to know the size and shape of each green at Turnberry. In my memory, they were all shockingly similar.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2018, 09:13:30 AM »
You can put me down as another who tends to think folks judgements are being clouded by not only the ownership of Turnberry but also the “romanticism” of Brora. I haven’t played the “new” Turnberry but it is reputedly better than before (even if you factor out the increased WOW factor) but I have played the old model (several times) and have also played Brora (several times).
 
If you boil it down to just the golf, IMO the old Turnberry as a whole was better than Brora, and I can’t imagine the new won’t be as well. That’s not to say that Brora doesn’t have some exceptional golf, it has, but overall Turnberry was(is) a step above, again IMO.

Niall

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2018, 10:00:21 AM »
You can put me down as another who tends to think folks judgements are being clouded by not only the ownership of Turnberry but also the “romanticism” of Brora. I haven’t played the “new” Turnberry but it is reputedly better than before (even if you factor out the increased WOW factor) but I have played the old model (several times) and have also played Brora (several times).
 
If you boil it down to just the golf, IMO the old Turnberry as a whole was better than Brora, and I can’t imagine the new won’t be as well. That’s not to say that Brora doesn’t have some exceptional golf, it has, but overall Turnberry was(is) a step above, again IMO.

Niall


Good points, Niall. I think there is some truth to what you say, even if I find myself on the other side of the fence. I actually expected to be blown away by Turnberry, and I'm definitely not above admitting that my criticism of it absolutely takes into account the fact that they moved heaven and earth for this result.


I also think this thread asks what it means to boil something down to "just the golf." Does that mean we remove Turnberry's sea views, ragged cliffs, lighthouse, cost, ownership, and the tall dunes that only run between holes? And we remove the sea views and livestock and lack of fussiness from Brora? Okay.


Stripped of all that, neither of them had any truly all-world holes with epic strategic questions or bold features. But one of them had a terrific collection of unique micro-features and movement and firm turf that allowed for a much more dynamic style of play. The other spent $200 million and feels like the lesser of all the great modern clifftop links I've had the pleasure of playing — from a purely "fun/unique/interesting golf holes" perspective.


But in the end, I don't think we should ever remove things like romance and charm. Aren't those two of the best things about golf? Don't they bring us back again and again? Also, I do genuinely still want someone to point out some interesting features from Turnberry that I might have missed or forgotten. I remember the first green having some cool land movement around it that definitely wound up feeling like an outlier as the round went on.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2018, 12:29:45 PM »
You can put me down as another who tends to think folks judgements are being clouded by not only the ownership of Turnberry but also the “romanticism” of Brora. I haven’t played the “new” Turnberry but it is reputedly better than before (even if you factor out the increased WOW factor) but I have played the old model (several times) and have also played Brora (several times).
 
If you boil it down to just the golf, IMO the old Turnberry as a whole was better than Brora, and I can’t imagine the new won’t be as well. That’s not to say that Brora doesn’t have some exceptional golf, it has, but overall Turnberry was(is) a step above, again IMO.

Niall


Good points, Niall. I think there is some truth to what you say, even if I find myself on the other side of the fence. I actually expected to be blown away by Turnberry, and I'm definitely not above admitting that my criticism of it absolutely takes into account the fact that they moved heaven and earth for this result.

Off hand I can’t say how much they moved but I suspect they haven’t moved as much material as you think. I think I’m right in saying that the basic underlying landforms remained the same and it was only a partial rerouting/new green sites etc.


I also think this thread asks what it means to boil something down to "just the golf." Does that mean we remove Turnberry's sea views, ragged cliffs, lighthouse, cost, ownership, and the tall dunes that only run between holes? And we remove the sea views and livestock and lack of fussiness from Brora? Okay.

To my way of thinking “just the golf” means putting yourself in the place of a local who plays the course regularly such that whether the views are panoramic sea views or views of the local industrial estate/caravan park, they all become background noise that eventually gets screened out.


Stripped of all that, neither of them had any truly all-world holes with epic strategic questions or bold features. But one of them had a terrific collection of unique micro-features and movement and firm turf that allowed for a much more dynamic style of play. The other spent $200 million and feels like the lesser of all the great modern clifftop links I've had the pleasure of playing — from a purely "fun/unique/interesting golf holes" perspective.

I haven’t played the new Turnberry so can’t comment on strategic play etc. but let me say in that respect that links courses tend to be much more nuanced and subtle in that respect, for some of the reasons you mentioned ie. firm, fast, uneven conditions. Very often you don’t get the nuances until after a number of repeat plays in all sorts of conditions, again put yourself in the place of a local, so when you say none of the holes asked any strategic questions is that maybe because you still don’t know them well enough ?

As an aside regarding Turnberry, I note what you say re the condition and wonder if that is to suit Donalds personal preferences or just what the weather gave you ? The other thing to say is that Donald didn’t spend $200m on the course and if he says he did he’s a liar. What’s the cost of two revamped courses ? £3m to £4m each perhaps ? Certainly not any of the made up numbers he’s come out with.


But in the end, I don't think we should ever remove things like romance and charm. Aren't those two of the best things about golf? Don't they bring us back again and again? Also, I do genuinely still want someone to point out some interesting features from Turnberry that I might have missed or forgotten. I remember the first green having some cool land movement around it that definitely wound up feeling like an outlier as the round went on.

Some of the things you might find romantic such as the remoteness and livestock wondering about, to my hypothetical local might just mean a crap phone signal and the need to clean his golf shoes more often !

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2018, 06:31:48 PM »
Niall,

I think the gentleman might be confusing Turnberry with Trump International GL- Balmedie as to controversy, cost, dirt moved.

The biases I suggested deal with Donald Trump and ultra-expensive golf.  Just like there are people who will not buy anything Nike or go see numerous Hollywood movies due to the expressed political views of the actors, directors and producers, anything Trump is kryptonite to many.  Ditto for a £350+ green fee (though TOC at £180 is ok).

I am a big believer that golf is a big world.  And though the opinion of the individual who considers Brora to be superior to Turnberry is, as Bob Crosby notes on the Golf: Want vs Need thread, "dumb" in my estimation, I have no problem that he holds it.  I must admit, however, that I've never had a course "ask" anything of me and "charm" as a characteristic is another one that goes right by me (for the record, I found Max Behr's writings tedious, confusing, and uneconomical).

As to "strategy", I think that we confuse that as well, possibly with tactics, but more likely with options that have as much to do with the weather, course conditions, the tees we choose, set-up, how we are feeling on the given day, the form of play, etc. as to the architecture.  One think I learned at the King Putter 1 was that there seemed to be an inverse relationship between those who waxed poetically about "strategy" and "interest" and the ability to hit the ball into the hole in the fewest number of strokes.  Some days my two primary strategic objectives are to get the ball airborne and to identify two or three relatively private relief stations.

I know that many here don't think highly of the masses and the market to set prices according to what the consumer is willing to pay for.   For consideration, I can join Brora today for an annual subscription of £175.  The green fee for one round at Turnberry- Ailsa is £350-375.  I suspect that it would be easier to get a tee time at Brora than at Ailsa.  But, having said this, I remember Brad Klein once noting that commercial success and critical acclaim are two very different things.  Perhaps that is one reason golf architects don't like to put their own money into the courses they design (Nicklaus learned the hard way, or so I am told).

BTW, not that it is relevant, but I played dismally at Turnberry (96) and not bad at Brora (80).  Two really different courses "asking" for a very different game.  To each his own.
   
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 07:19:42 PM by Lou_Duran »

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2018, 08:52:28 PM »
Slytherin!!

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2018, 10:00:47 PM »
Nothing underscores how subjective GCA is more than the ways views change based on who owns or is associated with a golf course.  Not that this is bad. 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2018, 05:14:49 AM »
Lou

In fairness to Mark I don't think Trump owning Turnberry was an issue in his assessing the course, if it were then I imagine he wouldn't have played the course. He rightly in my view suggested that views are over-rated and I in turn suggested the same about charm etc. In my view when it comes down to evaluating a golf course neither should really feature which is not to say you shouldn't enjoy them.

With regards to Trump, I would hope we could agree that while some of his policies might have merit, the guy is still a sleazebag.

Niall

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brora vs Turnberry
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2018, 09:25:45 AM »
  Thank you, Niall.


Lou, your post has a lot of assumptions about me or my golf abilities or my mood that day or my politics or finances or what tees I played or which course was busier. You could just ask, and I'll tell you the truth and how much any of them factored into my judgments.


All that aside, still no one has come forward to tell me about a feature at the new Turnberry that they absolutely adore that doesn't have to do with views or rocky cliffs or lighthouses — and I've asked twice. I've actually remembered a few of them, but I'll wait to hear from others.


Niall, all I can do is report what I saw and felt and experienced. I had my caddie, who was excellent, explain every change that was made and it seemed like a significant amount of land was moved. And even though not every playing corridor was changed, every green was completely rebuilt.


And I suppose that's where my bias comes in: My caddie pointed out a couple greens that were moved to completely new, more scenic locations, and then he informed us that they were scheduled to be completely moved AGAIN to even more scenic locations. Admittedly, that just left a bad taste in my mouth. It became harder not to view the course as being a bit trivial or hollow or soulless when you consider how freely they're just moving greens around, purely for better vistas from the tee.


But still, all of that would be forgiven if it had just a couple features as interesting as those at Prestwick. Instead, it felt like the whole thing was being filed down and buffed up for some future pro event.


I'm not suggesting it's a bad course in the least. I'm suggesting that it should be better.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli