Brora vs Turnberry

[Lou_Duran]

Niall,

Let's get the politics out of the way at the outset.   My recollection of the 2016 election was that there were some 17 Republicans and two Democrats vying for the nominations of their respective parties (there were probably other Democrats interested, but perhaps with about the same chance of getting the nod as was given to Trump through the R primaries).  Trump would have been my 17th choice out of the 19.  My very low estimation of him as a person has only grown worse since the election; my amazement about what he has been able to accomplish given the unprecedented obstacles he faces daily is not short of incredible.  Yes, there is much I don't like about the man and some of his policies, but if the binary choice I had back in 2016 was presented today, I would run to the polls as fast as I could and pull the same lever.

Perhaps you are right that ownership did not influence Mark's opinion.  Maybe the high expectations going in, the hefty price, and the type of golf he enjoys were the primary factors.  Though Watson and Nicklaus brought Ailsa to its knees some 40 years ago, it is a very difficult course for most mortals even on a relatively calm day.  We extol the virtues of club courses on this site- a good thing IMO- and Brora is certainly much more in that mold.

I confess to being somewhat orthodox in how I experience golf.  History and tradition are very important to me.  Golf is my respite from a complicated world in constant flux.   I don't go to a course looking for something unique and out of the box.  Playing different courses in various places, each with "unique" climate, soil, and cultural (maintenance) practices provides sufficient freshness, shot options, and demands on my abilities to suit me.  The pursuit of novelty in golf, IMO, seems to run into the grain- nature more than provides the variety which golfers in the relevant range "need" to sustain the "romance".  But, golf is a big world.  The Muirheads, Stranzs, Doaks of the golf world have a place.

As to aesthetics, they play a very big role in how I experience golf.  I remember an argument with Bill Vostinak (Redanman) years ago about a bunker that served dual purposes- direction/aiming and eye candy.   Bill thought it was entirely superfluous to playing the game and a complete waste of construction and maintenance costs.  On a resort course which fetches green fees of $175+ and does some 30k+ rounds annually, I thought it was a very poor argument from an extremely smart individual.  The discussion ended with being disinvited, jokingly I thought, from a fall trip to Pine Valley.  I haven't gotten the call some 15 years later, so maybe ......

[Niall C]

Lou

The expression is maybe between a rock and a hard place. Anyway, enough politics.

Re charm, romanticism and all that - admittedly I am spoiled as I'm "fortunate" to play much of my golf on courses that would readily fit into Ran's Custodeans thread and that no none will have heard of. That's the nature of a lot of the golf over here which is why sometimes playing a big course can be welcoming change. Overall though I just tend to play courses as I find them and don't worry about what they aren't.

Mark

I must admit I've never heard they were going to move any greens that have just been built. Perhaps your caddie was referring to old greens that were due to be moved ? As an aside, I've got a sneaky feeling that some of these new greens bang beside the coast will end up getting moved in future years due to ongoing issues with sea spray.

On another aside, you're the first person I've heard call Turnberry a clifftop course. For sure it has a rocky coastline in part but I suspect it is no higher above sea level than Brora or North Berwick which also has a rocky coastline in part.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

On the thread about Old Head - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66303.0.html. - both Lou and Rick mentioned the extent they’d been ‘told’, I presume by the US non-GCA-enthusiast brigade, that they “must play” Old Head as part of an Ireland trip. I hope my understanding of this is correct. If not I’m sure I’ll hear about it!


I suspect the same is true of Turnberry in relation to a Scottish trip.


I’m now wondering which other courses fall into this category, ie courses that US folk are ‘told’ they “must play” by the US non-GCA-enthusiast brigade. I can think of a few potential suspect courses but would prefer to hear which ones from the other side of the pond.


Just curious.


Atb

[Lou_Duran]

Niall,

I believe that we generally get the government we deserve.  Democratic societies place impossible demands on their governments and suffer the predictable, unfortunate results.  Yes, between a rock and a hard place describes things well.  I particularly like your last sentiment- play them as you find them and enjoy.

Lou, your post has a lot of assumptions about me or my golf abilities or my mood that day or my politics or finances or what tees I played or which course was busier. You could just ask, and I'll tell you the truth and how much any of them factored into my judgments.

Did I really do that?  I thought I was noting that some people confuse "strategy" for tactics or options, which are influenced by some of the factors you note.

I don't need to ask you for further clarification as when it comes to "charm", "romance", uniqueness or "interest", these are extremely nebulous, subjective perceptions that don't really lend themselves to a somewhat objective discussion, IMO.  Besides, I have no quarrel that you don't think highly of Turnberry relative to Brora, Nairn, Prestwick, et. al.  I've played all but CS that you mentioned and I find Ailsa to have all the variety, beauty and challenge that I "need" or want, plus.

Being that the DG is a public forum and that there is, IMO, a strong bias here in favor of shorter, cheaper, less demanding, less well-known courses, I piped in for the record that there are others who do not feel that way. 

BTW, if you are not mistaking Aisla for Balmedie, the $200 million you noted probably includes the acquisition of the courses and hotel (I think that there might be some surplus land as well) in addition to the renovation of both courses.  There is a book put out by the architects which does a great job of depicting the history of the club and their proposed changes.  I am nearly certain that $200 Million was not spent on the changes to Ailsa.

BTW, if you are bothered by renovations and modernizations, you may want to look at the history of many of the top courses and see just how often they have come under the knife.  What iteration of #2 is being played today?

David,

That is what I stated.  In fact, just yesterday I was told by a well-travelled golfer who once worked in the UK for a period that Old Head is not to be missed- among his favorites.  No doubt that a course's reputation has an impact on expectations and perceptions.  Me, I've been disappointed enough times that I check them at the door.  Old Head at the retail rate is not in my plans.  On the other hand, if I am over there and there is an open day at a decent rate, sure, I'll go have a look.   

 

[Mark Fedeli]

Niall, the new holes around the lighthouse definitely feel as clifftop as Cabot Cliffs. But I’m using that term mainly to compare Turnberry to the Cabots and Bandons and Kingsbarns and Castle Stuarts of the world. As opposed to the North Berwicks and Nairns and Broras. In other words, you won’t be casually playing any shots off the beach.


I was told all greens had already been completely rebuilt. And a couple that were completely moved are set to be moved again. I can’t remember the other, but I believe it’s the current 6th green, a par 3, where they moved the green next to a seaside dune, and are now going to move it again on top of the dune for better views.

[Mark Fedeli]

Lou, I think yes indirectly you are making assumptions because in response to my post you’ve listed off a host of external factors that might effect one’s judgment in critiquing a course. I’m not saying those factors are illegitimate in every case, just that there’s no need to speculate. I’m happy to admit what biases I have.


I’ve been very clear as to what specifically bored me about the golf course at Turnberry.

[James Boon]

This reply is being caveated with the fact that I havent played the current Turnberry layout, only played the previous once, and have lost count of how many times I've played Brora (I'm guessing its pushing 50 which for a course 10 hours drive from home seems a lot)


I will be honest that when I was due to play the previous iteration of Turnberry I wasnt expecting much as though it was highly ranked and I'd seen it at various Open Championships, it didnt really excite me. However expectations do a strange thing to our eventual opinion and I actually quite liked Turnberry when I experienced it for myself. So I wouldnt mind seeing the new version, even though I'm not overly keen to pass my money onto its owner... None the less, I'd be the same as Mark and Niall earlier in preferring to play Brora 9 times to Turnberry once.


To continue the caveat, I am a massive fan of Brora! But while I love its rugged charm and character, I think there is an aweful lot more there than its current spirit of place. I feel that the majority of the greens, their sites, the land approaching them and the general routing are all very strong. IF and its a big IF that I dont necessarily want them to do... IF someone wanted to up the maintenance budget and lengthen the course, I feel that with the existing foundations there is a real top course there that could easily host Open Championships (not withstanding location) and be highly ranked. I think one of the real reasons I love Brora is that while it has that potential in my eyes, its happy to stay as it is. 


Cheers,


James

[Jon Wiggett]

James,


I am very much of the same opinion.


I have not played the new version at Turnberry but am happy to believe it is better than the old. The old also had some really good holes including the eighth, ninth and tenth as well as 16 & 17. However, it also had many pedestrian holes with much of the course from the 12th to 14th being quite forgettable and a mundane last hole. Where I do see the problems with the new design is major decisions on tee and green locations seem to have been made for the views and in a strong wind (not so rare) might quickly cause the course to become unplayable for many players. This, for me is enough reason to downgrade the quality of the courses GCA.


As for Brora, it has the best set of Braid greens I have seen and as James says would have the potential on it's current site with minor tweaks in length to become a highly regarded championship course. Were it near Edinburgh and 7000+ yards I think it would be considered the countries top course.


Jon

[Pete_Pittock]

Never played Brora. My impression of Turnberry is coloured by my first visit, in 1975. Rainy. First hole was a drive and a wedge to a small circular green surrounded by two strands of wire. Huh?  Answer solved when I got to the Maidens par 3. No wire around the green but my fathers and my birdie putts (both within 10') were impossible by tens and tens of sheep hoofprints. I guess management figured you were invested in the round on the 11th, but not on the first!

[Rich Goodale]

On my first two golfing trips to the Highlands in the late 1970's all I cared to see and play (and showing my golfing friends) was Dornoch.  I did not know then that Brora and Golspie and Tain existed.  In my third trip in the early spring of 1981 I took another group of golfing friends to Dornoch between visits to the West coast and East coast of Scotland, and again stayed and played there oblivious to other local courses.  That year, however, I returned to Dornoch for a 3 1/2 month stay, and learned of Brora and have played there 25+ times, most recently a few years ago.  It was and is a magical place.


On that first trip in the early spring of 1978, the first course I played was Turnberry, driving down the A77 from Prestwick in the early morning, arriving at the hotel before noon.  My sea view room cost 17 pounds, and the golf 6.  The course was scrappy (by American standards) as was the hotel, but that first game on a true links was the most transforming moment of my golfing life.  The course seemed impossible to see, much less navigate, but as the round evolved, truths were revealed.  Tight lies are easy if you commit early and consistently.  Balls do not have to roll straightly.  Play your balls as they lie.  Golf is not just a test, it can be fun.  Turnberry is and was a magical place.


IMHO.

[Thomas Dai]

...... as James says would have the potential on it's current site with minor tweaks in length to become a highly regarded championship course. Were it near Edinburgh and 7000+ yards I think it would be considered the countries top course.

+1 (+2?) to James and Jon. I’ve long thought the same.
Atb

[Jerry Kluger]

So the fact that Brora is within spitting distance of Royal Dornoch is not enough to have it recognized as the best course in Scotland - it must be closer to Edinburgh.  Oh, and it must be stretched beyond 7000 yards to have it surpass The Old Course.  I know that we sometimes get carried away with our love of a course but perhaps this is a bit over the top. I don't profess to have the knowledge that others have with respect to the Scottish golf courses but with my limited knowledge certainly other courses such as North Berwick and Cruden Bay are at least the equal of Brora as well.

[Rich Goodale]

Jerry


My recollection is that Peter Thomson did in fact present a 7000+ plan for Brora several years ago.  It was quietly and politely dismissed.


Rich

[Niall C]

So the fact that Brora is within spitting distance of Royal Dornoch is not enough to have it recognized as the best course in Scotland - it must be closer to Edinburgh.  Oh, and it must be stretched beyond 7000 yards to have it surpass The Old Course.  I know that we sometimes get carried away with our love of a course but perhaps this is a bit over the top. I don't profess to have the knowledge that others have with respect to the Scottish golf courses but with my limited knowledge certainly other courses such as North Berwick and Cruden Bay are at least the equal of Brora as well.

So speaks the Golspie member 

Niall

ps. James - for the record, it wasn't myself who said they would play Brora 9 times to Turnberry's 1. Personally I'd have played the old Turnberry more than I would Brora

[Ken Moum]

Jerry


My recollection is that Peter Thomson did in fact present a 7000+ plan for Brora several years ago.  It was quietly and politely dismissed.


Rich

Thank the Lord.


I'm still pretty unhappy that they listened to complaints about par under 70 and changed 11 into a par five. The last time I played it, I resisted and played from the wrong teeing ground.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks the Moun.


We slightly older guys are due more respect than the newbies, from time to time.......


Rich

[Lou_Duran]

Jerry


My recollection is that Peter Thomson did in fact present a 7000+ plan for Brora several years ago.  It was quietly and politely dismissed.


Rich

Thank the Lord.


I'm still pretty unhappy that they listened to complaints about par under 70 and changed 11 into a par five. The last time I played it, I resisted and played from the wrong teeing ground.

I was under the impression that the science has been decided, par is irrelevant.  And who needs a teeing ground?

As to Rihc's expectation, I would gladly settle for the slightest bit of deference, say, by calling me "Lou" and not "Sir", and not suggesting that the reds (women's tees) are the senior markers.   I suppose it is unreasonable to expect that the youngsters would waive any strokes they are due to receive.

[Ken Moum]

I was under the impression that the science has been decided, par is irrelevant.  And who needs a teeing ground?

As to Rihc's expectation, I would gladly settle for the slightest bit of deference, say, by calling me "Lou" and not "Sir", and not suggesting that the reds (women's tees) are the senior markers.   I suppose it is unreasonable to expect that the youngsters would waive any strokes they are due to receive.

Aw, it's just me being a grumpy old fart. My gripe was/is that by making the hole longer, it got harder for me... par five or not. One of my favorite comments about the USGA making a course harder by shortening par fives and calling them par fours is, "Howinhell does shortening a hole 50 yards make it harder?"


So, you're correct, par doesn't ACTUALLY make a difference.  It is however a mental test.


Red tees?  At one of the courses where I am now, Topeka, KS, Craig Schreiner did a little work including adding new forward tees.  The old red tees got gold markers, and the reds were moved up.


But the women's club refused to play the new shorter tees, so they swapped the markers. Reds are now 5400 and Golds are 4800.


So... there's a remarkably silly situation where they play tournament's (all scrambles) with the women playing tees that are 600 yards longer than the ones the senior men play from.


Golf and golfers are, IMHO, insane.

[Tim Gallant]

There were nowhere near enough unique or interesting ground features to go along with the sea views and vistas. And it felt more like a modern course than something that had been there for decades (which isn't necessarily a problem, I thought Castle Stuart had plenty of notable strategic features, especially around the greens). The whole thing simply felt over-engineered, with too much emphasis placed on the visceral effect of the landscaping. And that makes sense — I learned they plan to move even more greens to locations with even more seaside backdrops.

Mark,


This was my impression after playing Turnberry last month. To caveat, Turnberry is a wonderful golf course, and I am absolutely splitting hairs here. However, overall, I didn't see much on the ground that was new/innovative/incredibly interesting. The one green I enjoyed the most was #8, mainly because there was this small mound/backstop at the back of the green, which looked natural and influenced play/putts to the back pin. It was a big green, with nice contouring that fit the scale of the place. The remaining holes were good, but not world-class.


The thing that disappoints me more than anything with Turnberry is the lack of original greens or anything that resembles uniqueness to the site that I haven't seen before. The more and more I play 'championship' links courses in the UK that have been altered, the more I see this ribbon effect on the edges of the greens with run-offs. It looks like a ribbon going up and down and up and down. It's too uniform to be natural, and ultimately, becomes commonplace and boring.

[Sean_A]

Tim

I agree with the ribbons deal....if I understand you right  Greens get surrounded by these mounds which makes it very difficult to decide upon the cut line.  On the one hand, if the green extends beyond the mound...its dopey because it isn't even close to a pinnable area.  Down the middle looks awful!  And cut inside the mounds makes it very easy for the mounds to become divorced from the green surface. Below is a case in point.



Now look at what Colt did...which makes far more sense, is more interesting.  See how the front left creeps over the edge of the mound...because it is shaped in a much more sympathetic way to meld with the green.



Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean


Are those pics of Turnberry redux?  If so, they make those who have been there and complain about lack of movement on the greens seem silly.  To me, the photos show what a green is what it should be, i.e. making the second or third or fourth shot challenging and interesting if one errs to any one of the 4 quadrants.


Am I misinforemd?


Rich

[jeffwarne]

When I played Turnberry 13 years ago i felt it was a decent course and a somewhat corporate experience.
Don't remember too many holes-maybe the tee shot on 9 and 10 and the halfway house-and I remember walking over to where Nicklaus and Watson drove it in the '77 Duel in the sun.
Playing Shiskine later that afternoon en route to Machrinish was the highlight of the day and I remember every hole.


The following year we played Brora and we were supposed to play Dornoch that afternoon for the second time that trip.(We had loved Dornoch the first time when we played it the day before)
Upon completion of the round at Brora I walked straight to the first tee and the group followed.
No one even asked why or what we were doing.......


Perhaps it says more about me and my golf companions, but if you have to explain a course to someone they need to be playing the other course.

[Tim Gallant]

Sean


Are those pics of Turnberry redux?  If so, they make those who have been there and complain about lack of movement on the greens seem silly.  To me, the photos show what a green is what it should be, i.e. making the second or third or fourth shot challenging and interesting if one errs to any one of the 4 quadrants.


Am I misinforemd?


Rich

Rich, Sean,


I don't believe that first photo is from Turnberry (but could be wrong). And I missed (and think you did as well), but there was small text that Sean wrote above the second photo that reads:


  Now look at what Colt did...which makes far more sense, is more interesting.  See how the front left creeps over the edge of the mound...because it is shaped in a much more sympathetic way to meld with the green.




Look at the difference between the two. In the first photo, the contouring on the left looks too uniform and man-made. Why make the humps the same height and depth? Hardly anything in nature is that symmetrical. Sure it works from a strategic standpoint, and I get your point that it influences play. But it's not unique to the site, and can (and is!) be replicated anywhere. There are so many other (better) ways to build a green than simply putting this ribbon effect around the edges of the green, which will influence play depending on the pin. Just look at the greens at places we talk about all the time.

[Rich Goodale]

Yes, Tim.  You and I both saw Sean's post before his edit (which included the Colt snippet).


You and he are right that the Colt green (#2) is more natural than the (unattributed) #1 one, and more pleasing to the eye, but what would have Colt (or MacK or McD or Archie Simpson or Doak or Coore) done with the #1 piece of land if he had access to modern equipment?


I wonder....


Rich

[Ken Moum]

Upon completion of the round at Brora I walked straight to the first tee and the group followed.
No one even asked why or what we were doing.......


Perhaps it says more about me and my golf companions, but if you have to explain a course to someone they need to be playing the other course.

Warne, anybody who plays with people like that gets my stamp of approval.


BTW, I listened to you talking about putting on your XM radio show and totally agree about stroke length.  I played a muni in South Dakota for a couple of decades that not only had slow greens, but several of them were big enough to offer putts over 100 feet.


You need a BIG stroke to get the speed right on those greens.


K