[MCirba]

Zzzzzz.....


I know it is wet and soft but Aronimink is an exceptionally difficult golf course for most mortals.


To see it reduced to a birdiefest really takes away much of my interest in golf spectating. I don't know if it's the equipment, the ball, the conditioning or the players with the combination of all of the above is going to kill the Golden Goose.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played Aronimink only a few times but I didn't make the putts they are making. In fact I think they are some of DR's best greens. I found the course difficult.I thought the same thing about Sedgefield. I've played it a dozen times. Seems like a lot of Donald Ross courses are no longer relevant for the pros.

[jeffwarne]

It wasn't that many years ago when someone shooting 63 was incredible-now it puts you in third place and you need another
to keep pace.


The distance genie has really gone crazy in the last 2-3 years.
a 480 par 4 with a drive that backs up is no problem for these players.
But no worries, I'm told they are at the limits of how far a ball can be propelled by a human and how far it can travel.

[Matt_Cohn]

What are the greens like? I haven't seen many putts that break a whole lot.

[Thomas Dai]

TV golf is usually pretty boring unless the weather is poor or, very rare these days, the course is extremely tough. There are no par-5's for the guys we see playing on TV so their scores 'in relation to par' are irrelevant and Dustin Johnson's comment last year akin to "I haven't hit a club longer than a 6-iron into a par-4 all year" sums up TV par-4's.
Very sad.


Roll-back the ball, reduce the number of clubs that can be carried and maybe make the players carry their own bags/use push carts would be a starter. Lots of other measures as well although we've been down this long road of discussion many, many times before!
atb

[Sean_A]

Roll-back the ball, reduce the number of clubs that can be carried and maybe make the players carry their own bags/use push carts  limit the loft range to say 15-50 degrees would be a starter. Lots of other measures as well although we've been down this long road of discussion many, many times before! such as proper matchplay for the PGA!
atb

JH Taylor...these guys could play!


Edited 

Ciao

[Mark_Fine]

Sad to say, unless you trick up the golf course (especially these older ones) which is basically taking the driver out of their hands by forcing layups off the tee with narrowed fairways and heavy rough like they did at Merion  , the game for the Pros has passed these courses by.  Most don't have the room to stretch the back tees to 8000 yards.  Yes firm and fast helps but honestly, it doesn't defend against a Pro hitting a chip shot on a 450 yard hole    which is all most would need when the turf is fast. I am starting to think that courses designed "just for the Pros" makes lots of sense.  I personally don't ever try to design (for me it is to restore and/or renovate) for that level of player when working on an older golf course.  It is just not worth the effort and expense.  When I try for example to "restore" design intent of a Ross or a Flynn,... etc, I am thinking more about the average to good player and not the guy who carries the ball over 300 yards in the air.  If you try to defend against them, you are wasting the club's money and probably ruining the golf course for the majority of the golfers who will play there on a regular basis.  Bomb it and wedge it is getting old to watch on TV.

[Rory Connaughton]

Mike,


   Was out there yesterday. The course is just too wet.

[Mark_Fine]

Rory,
You are correct.  If it were firm they would be driving it 360+ instead of just 310 or whatever it is.
Mark

[Steve_ Shaffer]

For mere mortals, Aronimink from the tips is 7267y, par 70, 75.5/138. 

For comparison purposes, Pine Valley from the tips is 6656y , par 70, 76.0/155

The tour pros play a different game.


HANDICAP GURU: Handicaps of PGA Tour players.Q: I know pros can't have handicap indexes, but if they could, what would be the average Index of a PGA Tour pro?]A: Most tour pros would have an Index of about plus-5. In any given week, the winner plays to about a plus-10. In the year 2000, when Tiger Woods won the U.S. Open, British Open and the PGA Championship, he played to a plus-10 the entire year. I know a lot of scratch golfers who think they’re good enough to play on tour, so let this serve as a reality check.from DEAN KNUTH, former senior director of the USGA Handicap Department.From Golf Digest November 2013, page 44

[Mark_Fine]

Steve,
Pine Valley is actually now over 7000 yards with 155 slope but your point is well taken.  The Pros play a different game but sadly it negatively impacts MANY great golf courses. 
Mark

[JESII]

In ways that are eminently avoidable...

[BHoover]

If you just accept that Tour pros play an entirely different game than other golfers, including elite amateurs, then it shouldn’t really bother you.


I would like to see the rules bifurcated and the equipment rolled back for Tour pros. But until that happens, I’m not losing sleep over scores.

[JESII]

BH,


Why would equipment need to be bifurcated if we could accept the vast differences in skill?

[Terry Lavin]

It’s depressing.

[JESII]

Why?


You once thought your 4 handicap might make Dan Phol nervous if he showed up at your course?

[Mark_Fine]

It is an ego thing for many older courses.  They don't want to accept that time has passed their course by when it comes to providing a great test for the Pros.  And there is lies the other problem - "Who defines and what defines a great test for the Pros?" If the Pros end up going back to Merion and they don't trick up the course again and the winning score is 21 under par, is it still a great test of golf? 

[MCirba]

For Better or Worse the game that people watch on TV has the most influence on what rolls down to all of the rest of us.


There are no courses, classic or modern, that can challenge the pros and new technology as was seen at Erin Hills last year. The only time scores are remotely challenging is if conditions are incredibly firm and significant wind is in play.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
"Wind" likely being the most important factor.  I am convinced that firmness is no longer the factor it once was although it might make the Pros gear down a bit and take drivers and woods out of their hands.  Even Ian Poulter drove his ball into the burn near the green during a practice round at Carnoustie on #18 (about a 450 drive)    He should have known to layup with a little knock down 350 yard 4I so he could have a full sand wedge into that green 
Mark

[John Kavanaugh]

I can't be the only person who runs into double digit handicaps every member guest that fly the ball over 300 yds. It's not a distance thing, it's a scoring thing.


If you know how to score you want to play these guys on long courses. The tortoise does not beat the hare in a sprint.

[Mark_Fine]

John,
I think we all agree but we are talking about the Pros here.  A double digit handicap who hits is over 300 yards is much different than a Pro who hits it that far.  We talk about "short" hitters on the PGA tour.  There are NO short hitters on the PGA tour.  It is all relative.  They ALL can hit it 300 yards if they need to.  Today, if you only hit it 300 yards on tour, you are "average"    And remember they only measure on I think two holes and a lot of guys don't even hit driver on those holes.  I have stood on the tee with my range finder behind guys like Matt Kuchar and watched him fly bunkers 310 yards off the tee.  Matt is not known as a long hitter (only averages 287 yards).  It is crazy how far they hit the golf ball.  Even Zack Johnson (who some think can't hit it out of his shadow) averages over 290 yards. 
Mark

[John Kavanaugh]

There are at least one hundred times as many golfers who hit the ball as far as tour players off tour as on. There are less than a dozen golfers who score as well as tour players off tour as on. Not everyone who can play on tour makes that choice in life.


Anyone one of us is as good as our choices. Why not build courses the benefit those who choose to be great?


I've spoken to a number of golfers who were on tour or the cusp of greatness and to a man they can identify the choices they made that cost them their dream. Is anyone suggesting that we modify architecture for they or their kind?

[James Brown]

It is an ego thing for many older courses.  They don't want to accept that time has passed their course by when it comes to providing a great test for the Pros.  And there is lies the other problem - "Who defines and what defines a great test for the Pros?" If the Pros end up going back to Merion and they don't trick up the course again and the winning score is 21 under par, is it still a great test of golf?

No course, however strategic, is still a challenge for the pros when it’s soaked.   It’s not that thI golden age courses are no longer relevant. 

[Mark_Fine]

So John, what are you suggesting?


Jason,
It used to be that a soaked course made it more difficult for the “shorter” hitter because they didn’t carry the ball that far and didn’t get their 30 yards or more of roll.  Not the case anymore.  Tee shots are backing up in the fairways at Aronimink and they are still hitting wedges and short irons into 500 yard par fours 😳

[Peter Pallotta]

With all television/network sports coverage these days, but especially with the PGA Tour week-in-and-week out, it's as if I'm watching 'Death of a Salesman' or 'Glengarry Glen Ross' -- what they're selling fewer people than ever are buying. Like Willy Loman, they're hoping to be not only liked but well liked -- except that almost no one does, because he's old and out of touch; and like Ricky Roma, they're waiting for the new leads, the premium leads -- except that the leads aren't coming, because Moss stole them and Williamson's a fool. And, since in golf's case not Brooks nor the Fed Ex cup nor a shortened season is getting anyone at all to sign on the line that is dotted, the Tour has gone all in and is banking on 'these guys are good' -- by which it means 'they hit it far'. Now, I might think the Tour is making a mistake, but it clearly doesn't. It thinks there's a Cadillac car waiting in the future, but I have a feeling that a set of steak knives is the much more likely 'prize'.

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