[Randy Thompson]

I have not lived in the US for over 25 years and during that time, we all struggled and fought a losing battle against poa contamination in our bent grass greens. I am presently consulting with a 36 hole golf club that gave up the fight about 10 years ago and have perfect 100% poa greens 48 weeks a year. Today, more then ever, as many have stated on this site, "It´s less about the grass species and more about the management practices¨. Are there more clubs around the world that are producing quality year around poa surfaces?

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Randy my first question is where is this course(s) located? I ask as while I agree with some of your statement, climate/location still plays a huge role in how well the turf performs (as does resources - but that’s a whole other topic).

I agree whole heartedly that if poa is managed correctly it can provide a good quality surface year round - I’ll actually go as far as saying that a good (ie dense) poa when it’s healthy will provide the best putting surface of any turfgrass. However, depending on location, most likely there will some point of the year where it wants to die and therefore not be performing at its best. In these situations bentgrass gives a really good surface consistently for longer periods.

The best way to sum it up is that the best grass for a locale is the one that grows best there. If poa thrives in a climate then why fight it - a perfect example is in GB&I, it’s a perfect climate for poa so it makes sense to manage for it.

There are clubs around the world that are very successful in growing poa greens. Probably the most famous in a not ideal poa climate would be Oakmont, who have done extensive work to make it work for the property, however the plant has adapted to it also.

One can also say (using your example) that course wasn’t managed to encourage bentgrass and that’s why the poa encroached. In that case your comment that it’s not the species it’s the management that matters is true but the overlying fact is that is if the species isn’t right for the environment it’s in then it’s going to be an uphill battle no matter how well it’s managed.

[Randy Thompson]

Alan,

Santiago Chile! No deep freezes or superficial freezes for that matter, normal summer temperatures 85 to 90 F, low humidity, 8 months without a drop of rain. Around 10 inches during the four month rainy period. The last five years summer temperatures are going up significantly and period of 95 to 100 F are becoming more frequent. Its a proven fact the deserts to the north are shifting towards Santiago. An hour and half from here on the coast we have a more favorable micro climate and anything more then 80 degrees is unusual. I think it does so well in Santiago compared to other parts of the world is because the nights cool down into the fifties. Economically, without a doubt favors the bent. They have USGA spec greens, verticutt lightly 52 weeks a years and 26 light topdressing. Growth regulators, hormones to stop seed head production and rolling two to three times per week. The poa is super aggressive in a cool season climate and its downfall is in relation excessive thatch production.  The new hybrid bermudas such as mini verde or even tiff eagle are great surfaces but only if you injure the plant through consistent frequent verticutting and keep the sand and limited thatch forming together. Same seems to apply to the poa. You stated the following:

I agree whole heartedly that if poa is managed correctly it can provide a good quality surface year round - I’ll actually go as far as saying that a good (ie dense) poa when it’s healthy will provide the best putting surface of any turfgrass.

I agree, now, but I am still in semi shock. They are firm and stemp between 10 and 10.5 except on Tuesday following the light frequent topdressings! They are cut at 3mm year around and by no means babied through the summer months. I was hired to correct about fifty problems but the last thing the club authorities told me, was they had great greens year around. I don´t waste time trying to fix things that aren´t broke so I have done nothing but observe the practices and the results are incredible and as you say, the best, truest putting surfaces of any turf grass that I have seen to date.

[John Emerson]

I have repeatedly seen P.annua greens that are some of the best and truest putting surfaces around.  Temperate climates are best suited for the species. I remember one of my first days as a turfgrass research associate at university of Kentucky about 12 years ago...I walked out on a seeded (NTEP TRIAL) P. Annua simulated push up green and exclaimed to DR. AJ Powell that “this is the purest bentgrass surface I have ever seen!!”  Needles to say he laughed at me.  It was so pure that I couldn’t tell the difference from poa and bentgrass.  When managed properly they’re tough to beat.  Downside is that it take much more inputs to manage.  Im not as up to date with the research trials anymore but at the time there were many seeded poa varieties that showed a ton of promise for actually planting as green surface.

[John Emerson]

Sorry to split hairs or knit pick...but it’s Poa annua not poa annual.  Pet peeve to botch scientific name 😏

[David_Tepper]

Randy T. -

Have nematodes ever been a problem for these greens? Nematodes love poa.

It sounds like the climate in Santiago may be warm and dry enough to keep them away.

DT

[Randy Thompson]

Sorry to split hairs or knit pick...but it’s Poa annua not poa annual.  Pet peeve to botch scientific name 😏


[/quote

Thanks for clarifying, I wasn´t sure so I googled it and found both. Instead of further investigating I decided to guess and go with a 50/50 of getting it right! Of course knowing that if I was wrong, it wouldn´t take long to be corrected. Thats what keeps this site special! Thanks for verifying that I not crazy in relation to quality poa surfaces.[/quote]

[Randy Thompson]

Randy T. -

Have nematodes ever been a problem for these greens? Nematodes love poa.

It sounds like the climate in Santiago may be warm and dry enough to keep them away.

DT

The only confirmed nematode damage that I know of in all of South America was in Venezuela Columbia could be a problem area but I have not worked there so can´t verify.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

So you are describing much of coastal California basically if you flop hemispheres, so there's your answer.  I can attest that the poa greens at Torrey were some of the purest surfaces I have putted on.  It comes at a large chemical and water (especially in CA) cost however.  On the flip side, regrassing with bent in California wouldn't buy you very many years before they were majority poa annua.

Alan,

Santiago Chile! No deep freezes or superficial freezes for that matter, normal summer temperatures 85 to 90 F, low humidity, 8 months without a drop of rain. Around 10 inches during the four month rainy period. The last five years summer temperatures are going up significantly and period of 95 to 100 F are becoming more frequent. Its a proven fact the deserts to the north are shifting towards Santiago. An hour and half from here on the coast we have a more favorable micro climate and anything more then 80 degrees is unusual. I think it does so well in Santiago compared to other parts of the world is because the nights cool down into the fifties. Economically, without a doubt favors the bent. They have USGA spec greens, verticutt lightly 52 weeks a years and 26 light topdressing. Growth regulators, hormones to stop seed head production and rolling two to three times per week. You stated the following:

I agree whole heartedly that if poa is managed correctly it can provide a good quality surface year round - I’ll actually go as far as saying that a good (ie dense) poa when it’s healthy will provide the best putting surface of any turfgrass.

I agree, now, but I am still in semi shock. They are firm and stemp between 10 and 10.5 except on Tuesday following the light frequent topdressings! They are cut at 3mm year around and by no means babied through the summer months. I was hired to correct about fifty problems but the last thing the club authorities told me, was they had great greens year around. I don´t waste time trying to fix things that aren´t broke so I have done nothing but observe the practices and the results are incredible and as you say, the best, truest putting surfaces of any turf grass that I have seen to date.

[Randy Thompson]

Same here unless your using nominee which isn´t labled for greens yet but seems to work. Most clubs in the Santiago area have between 20 and 30 percent and are controlling seed head production. Still a very acceptable year round surface.

So you are describing much of coastal California basically if you flop hemispheres, so there's your answer.  I  can attest that the poa greens at Torrey were some of the purest surfaces I have putted on.  It comes at a large chemical and water (especially in CA) cost however.  On the flip side, regrassing with bent in California wouldn't buy you very many years before they were majority poa annua.

Alan,

Santiago Chile! No deep freezes or superficial freezes for that matter, normal summer temperatures 85 to 90 F, low humidity, 8 months without a drop of rain. Around 10 inches during the four month rainy period. The last five years summer temperatures are going up significantly and period of 95 to 100 F are becoming more frequent. Its a proven fact the deserts to the north are shifting towards Santiago. An hour and half from here on the coast we have a more favorable micro climate and anything more then 80 degrees is unusual. I think it does so well in Santiago compared to other parts of the world is because the nights cool down into the fifties. Economically, without a doubt favors the bent. They have USGA spec greens, verticutt lightly 52 weeks a years and 26 light topdressing. Growth regulators, hormones to stop seed head production and rolling two to three times per week. You stated the following:

I agree whole heartedly that if poa is managed correctly it can provide a good quality surface year round - I’ll actually go as far as saying that a good (ie dense) poa when it’s healthy will provide the best putting surface of any turfgrass.

I agree, now, but I am still in semi shock. They are firm and stemp between 10 and 10.5 except on Tuesday following the light frequent topdressings! They are cut at 3mm year around and by no means babied through the summer months. I was hired to correct about fifty problems but the last thing the club authorities told me, was they had great greens year around. I don´t waste time trying to fix things that aren´t broke so I have done nothing but observe the practices and the results are incredible and as you say, the best, truest putting surfaces of any turf grass that I have seen to date.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Randy T. -

Have nematodes ever been a problem for these greens? Nematodes love poa.

It sounds like the climate in Santiago may be warm and dry enough to keep them away.

DT

Todes do not favor one grass over the other. You'd be shocked how much money is spent to kill nematodes on bermudagrass greens, shortcut, roughs. sandy soils, warm temperatures. To legally kill all the damaging types of todes with the best 2 products we have available right now? Over $3000/acre. That makes the average course having to spent nearly $10k to spray all their greens.

[Jim Hoak]

As stated, nematodes have been a major curse of poa annua greens.  (I know they affect other greens too, but less so, especially bent.)  There are two major new treatments for nematodes, and more coming from university research.  Treatment for agricultural use is a big business, and hopefully golf courses are getting a spill-over from ag.  This will make poa annua greens more acceptable, if not "perfect."

[Carl Nichols]

Columbia Country Club (Bethesda MD) has great poa greens.  I played there two weeks ago and thought they were the best conditioned greens I had played in 5 years. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Perfect poa.   Say no more


OAKMONT

[Mike_Trenham]

Pine Valley has plenty of poa.

[William_G]

Pine Valley has plenty of poa.

best Poa I've ever seen!

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